Germany united into two?

Could Germany have never fully united in the 19th century, but instead crystallized into a Prussian-dominated North German Confederation, and a southern German amalgamation led by Bavaria, other fellow major German states, with close ties to Austria?

I don't really know much about how this all went down. this happened in OTL prior to fully unification, didn't it
 
Could Germany have never fully united in the 19th century, but instead crystallized into a Prussian-dominated North German Confederation, and a southern German amalgamation led by Bavaria, other fellow major German states, with close ties to Austria?

I don't really know much about how this all went down. this happened in OTL prior to fully unification, didn't it

It didn't happen OTL. OTL, there was a North German Federation and a collection of South German states.

Maybe you could have Austrian intervention in the Franco-Prussian War, leading to a Prussian loss. Austria organizes the South German states under its leadership, while Prussia gets to keep the North German Federation.
 
Could Germany have never fully united in the 19th century, but instead crystallized into a Prussian-dominated North German Confederation, and a southern German amalgamation led by Bavaria, other fellow major German states, with close ties to Austria?

I don't really know much about how this all went down. this happened in OTL prior to fully unification, didn't it

Actually it's what happened OTL, except that Bavaria and some other southern areas fell under prussian hegemony.
German unification in the fullest sense meant the "german" areas of the Austrian empire to be included in the German state (something that Bismarck abhorred, since it would mean a preminently Catholic Germany).
Nowadays Austria is basically the part of the Austrian Empire that's left ethnically German after the World Wars. It is separate from Germany essentially for a Ally decree after both wars: Austrians are basically Germans, both linguistically and culturally.
 
Frankly it's almost a surprise this didn't happen OTL. Culturally, geo-politically, religiously, and geographically there was a serious divide that Prussia managed to bridge by luck and brute force. Any number of political changes following the Protestant Reformation could lead down a two-state path
 
Frankly it's almost a surprise this didn't happen OTL. Culturally, geo-politically, religiously, and geographically there was a serious divide that Prussia managed to bridge by luck and brute force. Any number of political changes following the Protestant Reformation could lead down a two-state path

I'll let Susano discuss the myth of the 91th century confession divide, but I will merely repeat that economically, by 1870 southern Germany was not only tightly woven into northern Germany's economy, but dominated by it.
 
Hmm, while there certainly is some precedent and reasoning behind a division, I find it unlikely. Not to say that German Unification was inevitable(Susano, don't hit me), but it was exceedingly likely. As Faeelin notes, economically southern germany was tied into northern economies, and even if you strengthened the South and Austria vis a vis Prussia et al, I somehow doubt Austria willingly uniting into a German state as long as it's still remotely powerful on its own.

Possible, yes. But not any more likely(and possibly less so) than total unification was.

I'll let Susano discuss the myth of the 91th century confession divide, but I will merely repeat that economically, by 1870 southern Germany was not only tightly woven into northern Germany's economy, but dominated by it.
I'm sorry to be nitpicky, but I think you mean 19th century. Unless Susano will exist as long as there is a Germany to argue its destiny, indivisible unity, and eternally struggle with Hurgan.
 
What would the other major places in the south be? Bavaria, who else?

Presumably Baden, Württemberg, and, if things go bad for it (IE the A-H Empire disintegrates, leaving just Austria and near-by/connected loyal lands), Austria at some point.
 
Probably it'd be very hard to make sure that neither of the two halves will dominate the other one. After industrialization starts, whoever owns the Ruhr area will have a BIG advantage.
 
Presumably Baden, Württemberg, and, if things go bad for it (IE the A-H Empire disintegrates, leaving just Austria and near-by/connected loyal lands), Austria at some point.

Add Hessen-Darmstadt.
OTL, Saxony managed to keep its independence after Austro-Prussian war, but it belongs to North Germany.
 

Susano

Banned
Frankly it's almost a surprise this didn't happen OTL. Culturally, geo-politically, religiously, and geographically there was a serious divide that Prussia managed to bridge by luck and brute force. Any number of political changes following the Protestant Reformation could lead down a two-state path

Youre talking out of your behind, Im afraid. The north-south divide is the major cultural fault line in Germany, yes, but thats also true of, say, England. Its just the usual regional variations, nothing more. Divide by religious denomination did not really play a role in 19th century Germany anymore - and besides the Württemberg corelands were protestant, and the Rhineland (in North Germany) as catholic as Bavaria.

All you had, as said, were the usual differences between regional variants found in any nation. There was certainly not a North German and a South German identity, and as Faeelin said economically North Germany and South Germany minus Austria were united in the Zollverein anyway - which also means geopolitical union, because the Zollverein could always also be used as leverage. Bismarck didnt solve the problem by "brute force" - the South WANTED to be part of an united Germany and it already was integrated with the rest of Germany to an important degree (hell, even the German Confederation had provisions to that regard, it was for example incredibly easy to switch citizenships between German states even when they were independent).

As for the three southern states founding an own "counter-Germany": Not likely. Baden and Bavaria greatly disliked each other, and Baden even tried to join the North German Confederation in 1869, even though it was a blatant Prussian dominance setup. Württemberg was never really serious about that stuff, anyway, and while Bavaria was, its finances were devastated. And as said, Prussia could always use the Zollverein as leverage, and then theres also the factor of public pressure on the governments...

Its of course always possible that German (re)unification doesnt happen as relatively smoothly as IOTL, especially in regards to foreign interference - it was really lucky that there was basically none IOTL. Its always possible that the loose German Confedertaion is propped up time after time again by outside powers. However, a stable North-South divide, that is not something that is going to happen.
 

Susano

Banned
Add Hessen-Darmstadt.
OTL, Saxony managed to keep its independence after Austro-Prussian war, but it belongs to North Germany.

Hesse-Darmstadt was in a weird spot, as its northern parts did belong to the NGC. If it doesnt want to turn itself apart it cant very well join any South German equovalent for its southern parts, hence.

And Saxony was a member of the NGC. Hell, one could even argue it was created just for Saxony, as Austria prevented it from being annexed outright by Prussia.

The classical "southern German states" are Bavaria, Württemberg and Baden - and as said, Baden would not form any sort of state together with Bavaria, Württemberg just wouldnt care and worry more about its economy, and Bavaria was financially unable to do anything.
 
Frankly it's almost a surprise this didn't happen OTL. Culturally, geo-politically, religiously, and geographically there was a serious divide that Prussia managed to bridge by luck and brute force. Any number of political changes following the Protestant Reformation could lead down a two-state path


Trouble is the South hadn't enough unity. Protestant Baden and Wurttemburg didn't fancy taking orders from Catholic Bavaria. Also, they were right next door to France and Bavaria wasn't strong enough to defend them against her.

In the end, Bavaria just wasn't big enough for the job. It had to be Austria or Prussia, and after Austria was defeated - - -
 
Youre talking out of your behind, Im afraid. The north-south divide is the major cultural fault line in Germany, yes, but thats also true of, say, England. Its just the usual regional variations, nothing more. Divide by religious denomination did not really play a role in 19th century Germany anymore - and besides the Württemberg corelands were protestant, and the Rhineland (in North Germany) as catholic as Bavaria.

All you had, as said, were the usual differences between regional variants found in any nation. There was certainly not a North German and a South German identity, and as Faeelin said economically North Germany and South Germany minus Austria were united in the Zollverein anyway - which also means geopolitical union, because the Zollverein could always also be used as leverage. Bismarck didnt solve the problem by "brute force" - the South WANTED to be part of an united Germany and it already was integrated with the rest of Germany to an important degree (hell, even the German Confederation had provisions to that regard, it was for example incredibly easy to switch citizenships between German states even when they were independent).

As for the three southern states founding an own "counter-Germany": Not likely. Baden and Bavaria greatly disliked each other, and Baden even tried to join the North German Confederation in 1869, even though it was a blatant Prussian dominance setup. Württemberg was never really serious about that stuff, anyway, and while Bavaria was, its finances were devastated. And as said, Prussia could always use the Zollverein as leverage, and then theres also the factor of public pressure on the governments...

Its of course always possible that German (re)unification doesnt happen as relatively smoothly as IOTL, especially in regards to foreign interference - it was really lucky that there was basically none IOTL. Its always possible that the loose German Confedertaion is propped up time after time again by outside powers. However, a stable North-South divide, that is not something that is going to happen.

Couldn't say it any better.

I'd add a conclusion, though: To get two "Germanies", I think the only possibility would be if Austria were a viable option for the South German states, which it never were IOTL. The main problem would be the minorities. Hungary becoming independent at some earlier state and taking Galicia with it could do that - rump-Austria with only Czechs and Slovenes as minorities in territories which historically were part of the HRE. Then you'd need a significantly stronger rump-Austrian economy - strong enough to cope with Prussia. That's highly unlikely, but doable with an early 19th century POD. After all Sudeten were an industrial core of AH. Alternatively, weakening Prussia could do the trick as well. Finally, if that fabled economically successful rump-Austrian state were more liberal and more democratic than Prussia, which in turn engages in a greater and earlier "Kulturkampf" it might be sufficient.

Quite a lot of PODs needed here...
 
This might sound kind of hokey, but what if Prussia goes East during the Crimean War?

They grab Poland, and maybe a few other areas, and now Prussia looks a lot more like Austria than a solid German state, would they still want all of Germany if there were good pickings to be had off of Russia?
 
Side-question: could Bavaria have sidled up to Austria as coreligionists? Not in terms of creating a South Germany, per se, but just in general opposing Prussia.

or did this happen in OTL and i missed it
 
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