Germany response to a early Allied Atomic bomb attack?

Let me explain this so you can understand.

No. It. Is. Not.

Did that get the point across?

Suggesting that a multi-ton device pressure-fused for this exact possibility would survive the crash of the bomber carrying it in working condition is idiocy.

Regular bombs are able to survive such drops, as my nearest musuem will show. However, they are mangled a bit, so the point is kinda moot. Furthermore, one must consider where it lands--a lake, they may get something salvegable. Otherwise, the Germans could definitely learn the composition of the bomb even from mangled remains, if not the mechanisms. How they could apply that is another matter entirely.
 
Regular bombs are able to survive such drops, as my nearest musuem will show. However, they are mangled a bit, so the point is kinda moot. Furthermore, one must consider where it lands--a lake, they may get something salvegable. Otherwise, the Germans could definitely learn the composition of the bomb even from mangled remains, if not the mechanisms. How they could apply that is another matter entirely.

Thats true, but the design of a conventional bomb is far different to the design of a nuke (with the possible exception of deep-penetration warheads).

For a number of reasons, a conventional bombs is a lot tougher - heavier case, more aerodynamic, very simple internal structure.

Unless the German were really really lucky (a drop which landed on a deep mudflat is probably the only way), they will get chunks (examining which will be fun, as its going to kill all the initial teams :p), or maybe (and its really a maybe) a seriously deformed bomb. Certainly its quite delicate internal structure wont be intact. Remember, these arent modern bomb teams, who know what to look for, they'd have no idea what it was until the team(s) started dying rapidly. Even then it may well take a while to realise what they might be dealing with.

Of course, the other snag is that any secenario which minimises damage to the bomb, assumes it drops into something soft..in which case its a long way down, why are they digging this thing out..indeed, they may well not even know it dropped there!
 
I found information on V-1 with Chemical Warhead

called the Fi 103 D-1
with tubes filled with K-Stoff (Kampf-Stoff = nervegas)
the D-1 airburst to distributed the K-Stoff over target.
not like V-1 hitting the ground.
Source: "V-Missiles of the Third Reich-The V-1 and V-2" by Dieter Hölsken

on BlairWitch749 remark over The V2 was far too unreliable of a weapons system to use nerve gas.
that true, but that din't stop Himmler demand to use for it !
also a reasion for Hitler to refuse the demand, (he din't like the V-2 project).
Hitler knew that the British with the allies would give back 10 or more
and He was victim of Gas attackt during WWI
 
I found information on V-1 with Chemical Warhead

called the Fi 103 D-1
with tubes filled with K-Stoff (Kampf-Stoff = nervegas)
the D-1 airburst to distributed the K-Stoff over target.
not like V-1 hitting the ground.
Source: "V-Missiles of the Third Reich-The V-1 and V-2" by Dieter Hölsken

on BlairWitch749 remark over The V2 was far too unreliable of a weapons system to use nerve gas.
that true, but that din't stop Himmler demand to use for it !
also a reasion for Hitler to refuse the demand, (he din't like the V-2 project).
Hitler knew that the British with the allies would give back 10 or more
and He was victim of Gas attackt during WWI


There is also a documented conversation with Himmler and the guy who ran the spandau nerve gas development factory (i can't remember his name ill edit it in tomorrow it is in anthony beever's battle of berlin book) where he flat out told Himmler that a JU-88 would be far more effective dropping them from a conventional airburst muntion than strapping it on a supersonic v2 given the instability of the agent

In regards to the questions about a nuke bomber going down... B-29s (assuming the americans transferred them to the theater for the occassion operated at very high altitude nearly 40k feet and the maximum range of most german flak guns was only 30k feet including the 88mm... the only german fighter that could operate with even a small chance of decent performance at that altitude would be the me109k or the ju388 ultra high altitude fighter... but givent he high speed of the b29 (nearly 350mph even with a warload) it would be almost impossible for the luftwaffe to intercept one... even an me-163 komet would be hard pressed because to climb to that altitude and creat the necessary angle of attack he would burn nearly all of his 8 minutes of fuel

you have to also assume the allies would launch a massive bombing raid somewhere concurrently to distract the luftwaffe and draw off all their fighters... a single bomber might regarded as a recon craft and left alone
 
Germany was developing a submarine launching platform for the V2 rocket during 1942 and had experimented with other submarine based rocket launches, so it is feasable that given a working warhead, they could have launched a V2 from a submarine.

Info:
http://www.prinzeugen.com/V2.htm

As to a nuke surviving a crash landing I would like to point out this historical incident:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash

A B52 broke apart at 31,000 feet and a nuke was recovered INTACT from the sea 2 1/2 months after the crash. As such, it is feasable that Germany COULD recover an intact nuke to get ideas from. Very very slim indeed, but still a possibility in the CORRECT circumstances.
 
Germany was developing a submarine launching platform for the V2 rocket during 1942 and had experimented with other submarine based rocket launches, so it is feasable that given a working warhead, they could have launched a V2 from a submarine.

Info:
http://www.prinzeugen.com/V2.htm

As to a nuke surviving a crash landing I would like to point out this historical incident:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash

A B52 broke apart at 31,000 feet and a nuke was recovered INTACT from the sea 2 1/2 months after the crash. As such, it is feasable that Germany COULD recover an intact nuke to get ideas from. Very very slim indeed, but still a possibility in the CORRECT circumstances.

The V-2 launched from a submarine...FEASABLE!!!!!????

I really need a 'completely gobsmaked at the daft idea' icon....
Have you actually looked at what they intended to do? The phrase 'suicidal, hopeless attempt' does come to mind.....:rolleyes:
 
The phrase "Built and sucessfully tested by the Russians in the 1950's" also comes to mind.

I am not saying that it was not an incrediably stupid, suicidal and hopless idea, I am just saying that from a TECHINCAL point of view, it was possible to do it.
 
The V2/sub combo was a pod towed by the sub, which was then to be flooded to a vertical position & then fired. Given the guidance system of the V2, even in very calm waters the bobbing around of the pod would make accuracy a joke. If a V2 aimed at Times Square hit within 10 miles of the aiming point that would be a fabulous success. Unless you were ASB lucky, the impact of one 500kg conventional warhead hitting somewhere in the 5 boroughs of NYC would be unfortunate for anyone right there, but otherwise negligible. Since no gas warhead existed for the V2 & it would take a long time to develop, even a best case scenario (using a conventional warhead that hits somewhere in NYC) is minimal. BTW in 1944/45 exactly how many Uboats towing this submerged pod will make it to the east coast of the US (and back). Odds are more Germans will die attempting the attack than Americans, and more damage (in lost resources) in the lost subs and expendable pods than any damage to NYC (or DC, Philly, Boston, etc).

A fat man or little boy falling from 35,000 feet and landing in a deep lake (the scenario that causes minimal damage) will still be damaged, internal circuitry relying on vacuum tubes (valves to you Brits) severely rearranged, explosive lenses (on plutonium bomb) distorted, and the fissile materiel literally bent out of shape. even if the bomb casing does not rupture, everything inside is going to be very hot from the fissile materiel being disrupted. Good luck reverse engineering a bomb from that mess. Even if the Nazis magically got all the tech specs & manufacturing processes blueprints for either type of bomb for Christmas 1943 there is NO WAY they could have had a weapon by May 1945. The Soviets began before the war was over, had a great deal of info from spies, had the advantage of knowing that it could be done (after 7/45) etc etc and it still took them 3 years to make a device, still not a droppable bomb.
 
The phrase "Built and sucessfully tested by the Russians in the 1950's" also comes to mind.

I am not saying that it was not an incrediably stupid, suicidal and hopless idea, I am just saying that from a TECHINCAL point of view, it was possible to do it.

What the Russians did was quite different, took them 15 years and was STILL a nightmare to handle safely (and the Russians had rather..relaxed..standards when applied to safety...)
The fuels alone made High Test peroxide look safe and stable....
The chance of getting it in action against the US in 1944-5 is just too small.
 
The V-2 launched from a submarine...FEASABLE!!!!!????

I really need a 'completely gobsmaked at the daft idea' icon....
Have you actually looked at what they intended to do? The phrase 'suicidal, hopeless attempt' does come to mind.....:rolleyes:


Submarine V-1's would have been far more adaptable and easier to engineer... the US did experiments with captured ones with some success and the Germans toyed with the idea some. Basically the ramp would be collapseable and mounted on the deck as needed and the rockets would be brought up and fired (the US trials complained about being on the surface too long as being risky and the reloading process being awkward (i seem to recall they could do one shot every half hour in calm seas) It might be a weapon best suited to be used at night and while not necessarily a "suicide" weapon it would have been highly risky

the germans could have achieved a similar propaganda effect in 1942 by having a dozen boats or so surface outside NY harbor (which was pretty much undefended during operation drumbeat) and bombarded the port with deck guns for an hour or two in the darkness
 
Submarine V-1's would have been far more adaptable and easier to engineer... the US did experiments with captured ones with some success and the Germans toyed with the idea some. Basically the ramp would be collapseable and mounted on the deck as needed and the rockets would be brought up and fired (the US trials complained about being on the surface too long as being risky and the reloading process being awkward (i seem to recall they could do one shot every half hour in calm seas) It might be a weapon best suited to be used at night and while not necessarily a "suicide" weapon it would have been highly risky

the germans could have achieved a similar propaganda effect in 1942 by having a dozen boats or so surface outside NY harbor (which was pretty much undefended during operation drumbeat) and bombarded the port with deck guns for an hour or two in the darkness

I agree. I wonder why they didn't try submarine V-1s. They launched them from converted He-111s when the launch paids were being bombed and the USN tested launching their Loons off of lots of ships during the immediate postwar period.
Never thought of the Germans doing that during Drumbeat, they certainly could have and Hitler had this weird obsession with hitting NYC. Wonder why they never tried it.
 
I agree. I wonder why they didn't try submarine V-1s. They launched them from converted He-111s when the launch paids were being bombed and the USN tested launching their Loons off of lots of ships during the immediate postwar period.
Never thought of the Germans doing that during Drumbeat, they certainly could have and Hitler had this weird obsession with hitting NYC. Wonder why they never tried it.

Bombarding NYC, Miami, and Boston with deck guns was something that Admiral Brinkmann wrote a staff study on... I think part of the problem was that as unbelievably successful as drumbeat was... it was only really carried out by less than a dozen boats at a time and to put them on a symbolic shore bombardment was considered by Raeder and Donitz to be a waste of resources. As far as I know (from reading the OKW and Kriegsmarine war diary) The staff study was never presented to Hitler or Hitler never made any comment about it that I know of... I think Raeder just nixed the idea.

I would rather disagree with them because it would force us destroyers to be kept for home defense rather than for convoy escort and thus would improve the kill ratio's of the subs

The Germans did some background studies on V1 sub launched rockets (never got close to the stage the US experiments got to after the war)... part of the problem was severe friction of command; Raeder and Dontiz HATED Goring and the fealing was mutual and the V1 was a Luftwaffe weapon which Goring didn't want to share just like he didn't want to spare any aircraft to support surface ships or uboats.

The V2 was an army weapon and they were less assholeish about sharing weapons projects (especially after Guderian became chief of staff in 44)
 
The Soviets began before the war was over, had a great deal of info from spies, had the advantage of knowing that it could be done (after 7/45) etc etc and it still took them 3 years to make a device, still not a droppable bomb.

I think that was more dueto the fact that the USSR was completely wrecked after world war 2, they had been beaten so badly that they never fully recovered. You can have all the blueprints you like, you could even have a team of scientists telling you how to make it but you'll still need billions upon billions of dollars, tens of thousands of personnel as well as several other factors which made it a miracle the Russians had a bomb before the mid-fifties. Of course the Nazis had a similar situation by 44/45 which just makes it all the more impossible for them.

Oh and if you want to bomb NY just get a Me264 on a kamikaze mission, it's less personnel than a sub, carries a heavier payload and is more likely to reach it's target.
 
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