Germany regains the Polish Corridor w/o A War

Ok...anyone have scenarios where a regime in place in Germany-Democratic, Fascist, Communist, whatever-could regain possession of the Polish corridor without invading Poland, OR, with an attack on Poland without drawing the French and British into war with Germany?
 
Best I can come up with is Poland being a very guilty party in the dismemberment of Czechloslovkia. If the UK and France view Poland as a real threat rather than a potential friend, they aren't going to support Poland with a War. Poland, however, only claimed a tiny peace of territory OTL, but if they had some kind of "buffer" in mind they might have grabbed too much and provoked the west. It's important to recognise that Poland's foreign policy was originally pro-German...If they move too far in favor of Germany to alienate the UK and France you could get your war without the Allies.

The other option is if Poland Freaks out and attacks Germany while Germany is mobilizing on its border. The UK and France MIGHT let that one go--but that's a rough call.

I don't see Poland doing either of these things though.

That said, messing with the Low Countries or Denmark WOULD provoke a war with the Allies.
 
It's important to recognise that Poland's foreign policy was originally pro-German...If they move too far in favor of Germany to alienate the UK and France you could get your war without the Allies.

So you're saying if Hilter or whoever decided to make an alliance with Poland, that would provoke France or Britain into a war? I thought that the Brits and the French were bending over backwards to avoid a war, enough to allow the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia...that doesn't seem right, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.
 
Originally posted by Foreign Shadow
What about Poland just relinquising the territory? Could that be a possibility without ASB's?

No way. Poland desperately needed a port and invested too much in Gdynia to simply give it up. Besides, what about Poles living there? They were majority in that territory, you know.
 
So you're saying if Hilter or whoever decided to make an alliance with Poland, that would provoke France or Britain into a war? I thought that the Brits and the French were bending over backwards to avoid a war, enough to allow the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia...that doesn't seem right, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

Afraid so.

The Idea is that Poland and Germany form some kind of long term pact, which Germany isn't really intending to honor. So, after Germany finishes Czechoslovakia, and Germany turns on Poland, the UK and France REFUSE TO HELP Poland because of its past abuses.

The idea is that while Germany is almost certainly going to get a war sooner or later with the UK and France, it need not be over Poland--if the Poles start to look like bad guys to France and the UK, war would be much less likely to happen over Danzig. Poland needs something on the level of a coup d'tat and a complete government screwover to ignore Danzig--which is not really in the cards.

So, the idea is that the UK and France find an alliance with Poland unpalatable, because Poland has positioned itself badly--gone too far on Germany's side--for them to get involved. A long shot to be sure, but certainly believable. That said, France and the UK would never tolerate German ambitions in Western Europe. War Delayed, not war denied.

This is an idea of Germany just plainly outmaneuvering Poland in diplomacy. It would be similar to Germany making a move against Italy--The UK and France would probably leave it alone. Italy is really screwed if Germany goes after Italy. Poland, OTL, didn't fall for the bait, and they were canny enough to pick the eventual winners of the second world war, although they really didn't win it themselves. There was a plan for Poland to Grab Lithuania in exchange for the Polish Corridor--if that plan had actually gone down, Poland would get betrayed and the UK and France would shed no tears.

And as for the UK and France--it was actually a matter of considerable stress, where Chamberlain and Daldilier might well have been acting against the collective will of their people. One thing is for sure--the British People at least would never accept a second Munich, particularly after Hitler broke it so blatantly. So, once the UK and Poland buddy up a war against Poland is a War against the Allies. Now, its this "buddying up" that can be averted. That, and perhaps the possibility of Poland's government completely collapsing (which might not be ASB but it's close, the Military Junta that ran Poland wasn't exactly unstable.)

As for Poland handing over the Corridor--this is again, not ASB but close. Perhaps if the Soviets hit Poland from the Back and Germany announces that its taking the corridor one month later, that might work. But Poland has a long history of being abused by its neighbors--they aren't Czechs--and they are going to fight Germany if they possibly can.

In short: Poland giving up the Corridor without a fight is nearly ASB. But the UK and France not backing Poland is at least plausible with the right setup.
 
What about the deal the Nazis produced when the conflict was already brewing? Plebiscite on the Corridor, Danzig back to Germany and an extraterritorial autostrada across? Hitler probably never intended to honour that proposal, but assuming he did, could the British or someone else have pressed the Poles into accepting?
 
I've thought about this. What if Hitler decides to go for the Corridor first? Before any other expansion? Would the Allies be more willing to negotiate if Hitler hasn't proven himself to be an warmonger? Would Poland be forced negotiate?
 
Originally posed by Admiral Canaris
What about the deal the Nazis produced when the conflict was already brewing? Plebiscite on the Corridor, Danzig back to Germany and an extraterritorial autostrada across? Hitler probably never intended to honour that proposal, but assuming he did, could the British or someone else have pressed the Poles into accepting?

Orginally posted by DAv
I've thought about this. What if Hitler decides to go for the Corridor first? Before any other expansion? Would the Allies be more willing to negotiate if Hitler hasn't proven himself to be an warmonger? Would Poland be forced negotiate?

I think that theoretically Poland might have accepted loosing its rights in Danzig (in exchange for some trade provileges). A plebiscite is very unlikely, even if Poles had a big chance to win it - they simply wouldn't have wanted to risk it. Extraterritorial austrada is actually possible, it was discussed by Polish goverment. However, there is also Polish national pride at stake.
If Hitler made Polish corridor his first demand, he would have pushed too far. Remember, he used a "sausage strategy" - cutting it peace by peace. First tentative remilitarization of Rhine region, then Anschluss enthusiastically welcomed by majority of Austrians, so acceptable to the West, then Sudetenland (a rather small region). Invasion of Czechoslovakia was a step too far - after that he could only fight.
Now if he demanded Polish corridor first, Poland flatly refuses. France might actually support Poland - if Hitler starts with such big demands, what next -Alsace-Lorraine?Also, Hitler is much weaker, without Czechoslovakian industry and arms.
 
So you guys are saying there's no way the Brits and French would have allowed Germany to take the Polish Corridor by force, and no way the Poles would have allowed it to be returned peaceably?

What if it was a peaceful, moderate leader who just wanted to claim German control of Germany territory, who explicitly stated he would make no claims on Alsace-Lorraine, and that he didn't want war but had to be prepared to fight for what was rightfully Germany's?
 
Originally posted by Foreign Shadow
What if it was a peaceful, moderate leader who just wanted to claim German control of Germany territory, who explicitly stated he would make no claims on Alsace-Lorraine, and that he didn't want war but had to be prepared to fight for what was rightfully Germany's?
Polish answer is simple - it is NOT German territory. Germany (or rather Prussia) took it from Poland by force and then they were forced to give it back. The majority of inhabitants is Polish and they want to remain Polish. Also, Poland simply can not afford loosing port (Gdynia) they worked so hard to build and they need an access to the sea. If necessary, they will protect their land.
And peaceful, moderate leader wouldn't have built powerful war machine, would he? Besides, a peaceful, moderate leader doesn't demand that a country gives up a big and very valuable piece of land with milions of its citizens who don't want that, threatening with war.
 

Susano

Banned
No way it will happen without war, though its very much possible that the Western Powers stay out of it, in a Second Munich scenario. Especially if hitler doesnt occupy "Remnaint Czechia" beforehand, thus showing the world he cant be trusted. And with the Polish corridor issue, really all Versailles issues would have been cleared, so its possible the Western Powers stay out then...
 
This scenario couldn't occur without a war. The Shattered World timeline has an interesting take on the Soviets invading Poland. The Germans later come in as perceived liberators, but later annexed Poland outright. They got the corridor back and then some.
 
Originally posted by Foreign Shadow

Polish answer is simple - it is NOT German territory. Germany (or rather Prussia) took it from Poland by force and then they were forced to give it back. The majority of inhabitants is Polish and they want to remain Polish. Also, Poland simply can not afford loosing port (Gdynia) they worked so hard to build and they need an access to the sea. If necessary, they will protect their land.
And peaceful, moderate leader wouldn't have built powerful war machine, would he? Besides, a peaceful, moderate leader doesn't demand that a country gives up a big and very valuable piece of land with milions of its citizens who don't want that, threatening with war.

He does if it's his country's. The events discussed (the Prussians taking the territory in the 18th or 19th Century-they are TEH EVOL, how dare they do what everyone else was doing) are irrelevant. After over 80 years as German territory, it should have stayed that way. They wouldn't be the only landlocked Central European country, after all. If the Poles don't want to live as citizens of Germany, they can move into the land they stole from the Ukrainians in '19-21.
 
Originally posted by Foreign Shadow
He does if it's his country's. The events discussed (the Prussians taking the territory in the 18th or 19th Century-they are TEH EVOL, how dare they do what everyone else was doing) are irrelevant. After over 80 years as German territory, it should have stayed that way. They wouldn't be the only landlocked Central European country, after all. If the Poles don't want to live as citizens of Germany, they can move into the land they stole from the Ukrainians in '19-21.
Warsaw was Russian territory for about 80 years (I count it since 1831, the fall of November Uprising). Should it have stayed Russian as well? Alsace-Lorraine was German territory for about 40 years. Should it have stayed German? Venice was Austrian territory for about 70 years. Should it have stayed Austrian? Ireland was British territory for hundreds of yeras. Should it have stayed British?
And I don't blame Prussians for taking Pomerania in XVIIIth century - they were stronger, so they took it. However, I see no reason for Germans to blame Poles for doing pretty much the same - using international situation to their advantage. Only Poles could always say they were the ethnic majority in the Pomeranian corridor, which IMHO, was decisive factor. And if minority of Germans living there didn't want to live as Polish citizens, they could move back into Germany.
Frankly, you're being a little hypocritical here. Prussians taking someone's else territory are OK, but when Poles do that, they "steal" the land. As far as Ukrainians goes, you might even have a point (they were ethnic majority in most of territory there) altough remember, there was no independent Ukraine to reunite that land with. As far as Pomerania goes? I don't think so.
Besides, all that discussion is purely academic one. Poland would have never agreed to give up Pomeranian corridor. She couldn't afford that. It was well developed region, with one of the greatest Polish investments (Gdynia) and milions of Poles. No Polish goverment would have given it up without war, no matter what France and Britain would have said.

Originally posted by Admiral Canaris
It's a long shot, but perhaps Poland could be compensated with Lithuania?
AFAIK Germany indirectly suggested something like that, but Poland wasn't interested (for many reasons - one of them was fate of Poles from Pomerania). Also Goering allegedly mentioned once that "Black Sea is also a sea".

Originally posted by Susano
No way it will happen without war, though its very much possible that the Western Powers stay out of it, in a Second Munich scenario. Especially if hitler doesnt occupy "Remnaint Czechia" beforehand, thus showing the world he cant be trusted. And with the Polish corridor issue, really all Versailles issues would have been cleared, so its possible the Western Powers stay out then...
I agree. Britain would almost certainly stayed out of it. France had a mutual defence pact with Poland, but considering lack of aggressive spirit in French army then, there would have been another "Phoney War" or "Sietzkrieg", if you prefere.
OTOH remember that in Munich Hitler sweared it was his last demand. And then what, another one, and such big? That would have been a big political defeat for Chamberlaine and Britain wouldn't have been very happy about it.
 
IMHO POD should be sometimes on or before 1935 to make it happen. How about Marszałek living longer than he did IOTL? I think that any agreement over the Corridor should be consequence of strong Polish-German Anti-Soviet alliance, not vice versa. Make Poles and Nazi allies first and Corridor solution will come later.
 
Originally posted by Foreign Shadow

Warsaw was Russian territory for about 80 years (I count it since 1831, the fall of November Uprising). Should it have stayed Russian as well? Alsace-Lorraine was German territory for about 40 years. Should it have stayed German? Venice was Austrian territory for about 70 years. Should it have stayed Austrian? Ireland was British territory for hundreds of yeras. Should it have stayed British?
And I don't blame Prussians for taking Pomerania in XVIIIth century - they were stronger, so they took it. However, I see no reason for Germans to blame Poles for doing pretty much the same - using international situation to their advantage. Only Poles could always say they were the ethnic majority in the Pomeranian corridor, which IMHO, was decisive factor. And if minority of Germans living there didn't want to live as Polish citizens, they could move back into Germany.
Frankly, you're being a little hypocritical here. Prussians taking someone's else territory are OK, but when Poles do that, they "steal" the land. As far as Ukrainians goes, you might even have a point (they were ethnic majority in most of territory there) altough remember, there was no independent Ukraine to reunite that land with. As far as Pomerania goes? I don't think so.

Well, perhaps you're right, and I'm being unfair. If the majority was Poles at the time of Versailles, then maybe it's a fair loss. Eh, it's not like it's German territory so much as a Prussian conquest. Since there's no way to win it back without a war, a moderate leader would probably just look to Danzig and then try to form an alliance with Poland.
 
Originally posted by Foreign Shadow
Since there's no way to win it back without a war, a moderate leader would probably just look to Danzig and then try to form an alliance with Poland.

I agree. Poland might have agreed to Danzig being again part of Germany (it was mostly German town then) in exchange for some priveleges for Polish trade (lower or no customs or something similar) and guarantees of fair treatment of ethnic Poles in Germany. After all, Poland already had Gdynia.
With better Polish-German relations an autostrad through corridor might have been possible, although I doubt Poles would have agreed to make it exterritorial one. They might accept a kind of a joint venture, with Poland controlling it as Polish territory, but German firm controlling it as private propriety.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
THere is a slight chance if Poland gets enough compensation, Lituania, Latvia, the Ukraine and Constantinopel should be about enough.

Edit:

Another very easy solution:
Sovietrussia wins the russian-polish war, completly absorbing the polish state, and the German-Russian border goes back to where it was before WWI.
 
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