nbcman
Donor
IOTL they did. Plus there was the 7th Fleet and more waiting in the wings if Kurita hadn’t chickened out.Yes he could have. DEs and Jeep carriers can't stop battleships
IOTL they did. Plus there was the 7th Fleet and more waiting in the wings if Kurita hadn’t chickened out.Yes he could have. DEs and Jeep carriers can't stop battleships
IOTL they did. Plus there was the 7th Fleet and more waiting in the wings if Kurita hadn’t chickened out.
He went haring around chasing phantom other capital ships after retreating from the CVEs until he ultimately withdrew. He didn’t want to attack the transports; he wanted to fight BBs or CVs. He would have been better off as the commander of the southern groups where he would have gotten his wish. Kurita failed off Samar, period.Kurita turned around because he didn't know what he was up against. With a clearer intelligence picture his forces were more than sufficient to brush aside the Taffies and steam into Leyte Gulf. If his entire force got destroyed by Oldendorf or Halsey it would have been worth the sacrifice.
He went haring around chasing phantom other capital ships after retreating from the CVEs until he ultimately withdrew. He didn’t want to attack the transports; he wanted to fight BBs or CVs. He would have been better off as the commander of the southern groups where he would have gotten his wish. Kurita failed off Samar, period.
Yes he could have. DEs and Jeep carriers can't stop battleships
And yet he was stopped. Leyte Gulf wasn't one action, it was a series of them. And Japan got crushed in. Every. Single. One.
Even IF they had crushed the Americans at Samar they would have run into 450 aircraft swarming them and over 60 destroyers. He would have had to defeat these forces in under four hours before the 3rd fleet hits them. It can't be done.
Japan had no more hope of winning any stage of Leyte Gulf than they did of winning the war.
The three Taffys, with Taffy 1 and 2 20-30 miles away. And Japan had no significant ability to counter these planes in any way. Sure they aren't the best at attacking ships, but they can still do quite a bit of damage, as they did OTL, and will continue to do if the IJN manages to continue advancing.450 aircraft from where?
That's make a good time line . Stalin basically gives Hitler two years to wear himself and the Wallies out. Wonder if the Wallies would even bother invading Europe without the Soviets tying down a hundred divisionsThe outcome of the war had already been decided long before 6 June 1944. It's no coincidence that Claus von Stauffenberg tried to assassinate Hitler just a few weeks later, on 20 July 1944. It had become overwhelmingly clear that the war was lost.
The best course for Germany would have been an armistice. If the Allies would even accept such a thing (which they said they wouldn't - but it could still be worth a try). Failing that, unconditional surrender was the only realistic option.
One might wonder what (if any) terms Germany could have got in the summer of 1944. Probably a better deal than OTL outcome in 1945. At best, they might be allowed to keep their pre-war borders. I believe Stauffenberg and his supporters were hoping for 1914 borders. At least if that was achieved Germany would have gained something from the war (the Danzig corridor) although the price could hardly have been considered worth it, given how many lives had been lost by then.
The Allies however might not have been willing to accept this and may have simply refused to accept anything less than unconditional surrender, in which case Germany may still have faced total destruction as per OTL.
Really, Germany would have done better to make peace a year earlier, in April 1943. It should already have been clear by then that Germany faced destruction if it did not end the war immediately. A separate peace with the Soviets might have resulted in a return to the status quo ante, in which case the Germans keep their original gains in Poland and everything else they gained up to June 1941. That would be a much more favourable deal even than 1914 borders - although Germany would then still have to somehow stop the British and Americans from successfully invading from the west.
Though inevitably someone’s gonna chime in with the classic “Magic nuclear armed B-36s defeat Germany overnight” it took the WAllies 2 and a half years of preparation, strategic bombing, logistics buildup and experience in North Africa/Italy to pull off the Normandy landings against a Wehrmacht that had been bled dry in the East for 3 years and was still fighting on multiple fronts.Wonder if the Wallies would even bother invading Europe without the Soviets tying down a hundred divisions
The outcome of the war had already been decided long before 6 June 1944. It's no coincidence that Claus von Stauffenberg tried to assassinate Hitler just a few weeks later, on 20 July 1944. It had become overwhelmingly clear that the war was lost.
The best course for Germany would have been an armistice. If the Allies would even accept such a thing (which they said they wouldn't - but it could still be worth a try). Failing that, unconditional surrender was the only realistic option.
One might wonder what (if any) terms Germany could have got in the summer of 1944. Probably a better deal than OTL outcome in 1945. At best, they might be allowed to keep their pre-war borders. I believe Stauffenberg and his supporters were hoping for 1914 borders. At least if that was achieved Germany would have gained something from the war (the Danzig corridor) although the price could hardly have been considered worth it, given how many lives had been lost by then.
The Allies however might not have been willing to accept this and may have simply refused to accept anything less than unconditional surrender, in which case Germany may still have faced total destruction as per OTL.
Really, Germany would have done better to make peace a year earlier, in April 1943. It should already have been clear by then that Germany faced destruction if it did not end the war immediately. A separate peace with the Soviets might have resulted in a return to the status quo ante, in which case the Germans keep their original gains in Poland and everything else they gained up to June 1941. That would be a much more favourable deal even than 1914 borders - although Germany would then still have to somehow stop the British and Americans from successfully invading from the west.
In a 43 seperate peace timeline...how much longer does the war go?
Say it happens right before Kursk...pre 41 borders, all living POWs returned as well as all trading.
How does the Western front go? Are we just back into another phony war? Do the Allies try and invade right away before reinforcments arrive?
Do both sides just shake their fists at each other?
How does tgis effect the holocaust? More deaths? Less?
The Taffys did have torpedoes and other ordinance that could and did damage the attacking cruisers. Suzuya was sunk after an air attack set off her long lance torpedos. Chokai was sunk after her torpedoes were set off by a single shot from White Plains which slowed her enough to be sunk by AC from Taffy 2. The initial air attacks were with whatever the planes were armed with at the time but the later attacks were with torpedoes and bombs.450 aircraft from where? The Seventh Fleet? Discounting Oldendorf's force in Surigao Strait the combined power of TF 77.4 amounted to 18 CVEs (3 per Task Unit - "Taffy"), 9 destroyers, and 13 destroyer escorts. Even historically these forces were scattered and could only offer sporadic resistance; their planes didn't even have any weapons capable of effectively dealing with cruisers or battleships. If the Japanese defeated Taffy 3 there would have been nothing standing between them and Leyte Gulf, until Oldendorf's 6 Battleships, 8 cruisers, and 30-odd destroyers arrived from the south.
By that point it would have been a hollow victory and probably would have cost Admiral Halsey his job.
Kurita turned around because he didn't know what he was up against. With a clearer intelligence picture his forces were more than sufficient to brush aside the Taffies and steam into Leyte Gulf.
If his entire force got destroyed by Oldendorf or Halsey it would have been worth the sacrifice.
Utter nonsense. Compare the performance of advanced radar directed fire control of all US ships to the woeful fire control of the Japanese ships. The only concern would be that the US ships expended some of their ammo during the Surigao Strait. But there’s enough firepower with the 7th Fleet plus air attacks to dispatch Center Force handily.Kurita should've just ignored Taffy 3. It was foolish to think it was a group of fleet carriers. If that had been the case, i.e. if it had been Halsey's force, which had just plastered his center force the day before, the beating would've resumed at daybreak on the 25th. Kurita's mission was to go to Leyte gulf.
Right, that was their last chance to accomplish much. Btw had Kurita avoided the losses he incurred en route to san Bernadino strait--which I think would've been possible-- I'm not at all sure Oldendorf could've destroyed him, even if he hadn't gone down surigao strait.
Yeah the B-36 missed several years. It's a massive hole and hand waving that away is silly.Though inevitably someone’s gonna chime in with the classic “Magic nuclear armed B-36s defeat Germany overnight” it took the WAllies 2 and a half years of preparation, strategic bombing, logistics buildup and experience in North Africa/Italy to pull off the Normandy landings against a Wehrmacht that had been bled dry in the East for 3 years and was still fighting on multiple fronts.
Imagine how much more difficult, how costlier and how longer it would have been (assuming an AANW style stalemate didn’t form) for the WAllies to launch a successful invasion of Nazi Europe if there was no ongoing war with the USSR.
It should also be remembered that one of Halsey’s task groups, McCain’s 38.1, had been diverted to Ulithi and had turned around when the Samar mess began. It was just getting into strike rage when Kurita began to withdraw, and that’s another 300+ aircraft that lack the training and payload limitations of the Taffy aircraft should Kurita press on into the Gulf.