Germany map request

JJohnson

Banned
I'd like to request a map of Germany similar to this one, but including 1866 Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, Austrian Silesia, and Slovenia (1, 3, 4, 8 - 15 here)., showing the individual states of this new Germany (Großdeutschland), which is essentially the Gross-Deutschland model from the Frankfurt Parliament, with modern states' borders. The Sudetenlands should be annexed to Saxony, Bavaria, and Austrian Silesia to Silesia that they border. Sudetenland bordering Lower and Upper Austria would become parts of those lands, as in this 1943 map colors them.

So:
*The Sudetenland next to Saxony becomes part of Saxony
*Austrian Silesia joins Silesia
*The remaining Sudetenlands join Bavaria, and Upper/Lower Austria, as in the 1943 map.
*East Prussia has its 1943 border relative to Poland
*Italy has its modern border relative to Austria, taking 7 in the map above.


Italy will get Trento, Istria, and Dalmatia, so those wouldn't be part of this Germany. If you'd like to put this Germany into a whole map of Europe, that'd be great too.

Thanks in advance,

James
 
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JJohnson

Banned
I was thinking, since they're German majority, but since Bohemia joins the Reich, there'd be no real need. Good point. Also, South Tirol remains within this Gross-Deutschland.

So, essentially, it's this Germany, plus Bohemia, Moravia, Austrian Silesia (added to this Silesia), and the Austrian states as in here (1, 3, 4, 8-15). A second version would include the Prussian/Polish borders from the 1943 map after this timeline's world war 1.

ImperialVienna, would you mind assisting me in the German side of this timeline?

And thanks in advance anyone who can create this map!

James
 
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JJohnson

Banned
I'm not a map-maker, but as for the political side, I would say that in this timeline, as part of this timeline, Germany and Austria have a unified monarchy. I don't mind Habsburgish influence in the monarchy, as I would think that'd unify the country, considering the two powers at work within Germany, Austria and Prussia.

I envision here, that as a result of this unification, we see something along the lines of a Sweden or Norway, with the king/Kaiser the executive, and the Kanzler the equivalent of the American VP (in the sense of being the president of the Reichstag, and you see nice, moderate royalty, like Princess Madeleine being relatively helpful and scandalfree (unlike the UK royalty). I'm not well versed in royalty, but perhaps some unification of the Hohenzollern and Habsburg lines within the 10-20 years after unification would solidify it, and aid Germany moderating to the UK side before WW1. Do you know how a unified monarchy could develop in this Germany?

We would need, aside from the monarchy, a good policy towards the Czechs, Slovenes, and Poles, since they'd be our largest minorities, so they'd eventually assimilate. In my above timeline, however, the Poles are a belligerant against Germany, so many are expelled from the country after the 40s.

Perhaps for the timeline, we could develop some kind of bounce between Austria/Prussia for the royalty, so that after Bismark and Kaiser William I, William II (born without Erb's Palsy) marries a Habsburg, unfiying the lines and carrying on much of Bismarck and William I's policies.

Ideas, thoughts?

James
 

VT45

Banned
How's this?

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Nietzsche

Banned
Something that bugs me about most "Uber Germany" maps is that they next to never seem to include Luxembourg. Why?
 

euio

Nietzsche said:
Something that bugs me about most "Uber Germany" maps is that they next to never seem to include Luxembourg. Why?
Click to expand...
The only time my uber-Germanies don't control Luxemburg is when it's already controlled by Uber-Burgundy or Uber-Luxemburg.
 

Stateless

Nietzsche said:
Something that bugs me about most "Uber Germany" maps is that they next to never seem to include Luxembourg. Why?
Click to expand...

It's a small country that speaks (a dialect of) German. It was a member of the German Confederation and the Zollverein - and if the Germans don't take it, the French might. It's a heavily fortified region on the border between France and Germany, providing an advantage to the side that holds it. Had the Germans won the First World War it would probably have been annexed to Germany. In the Second World War it was annexed to Germany. The fact that Luxemburg isn't part of OTL Germany is more surprising than it being part of ATL Germany!
 

General Zod

Banned
JJohnson said:
I envision here, that as a result of this unification, we see something along the lines of a Sweden or Norway, with the king/Kaiser the executive, and the Kanzler the equivalent of the American VP (in the sense of being the president of the Reichstag, and you see nice, moderate royalty, like Princess Madeleine being relatively helpful and scandalfree (unlike the UK royalty).
Click to expand...

A political model which I fancy and deem sufficiently realistic for a moderate Grossdeutschsland united German Empire where a working constitutional compromise is reached between conservative Junker landed elite and moderate-progressive borgeousie is a semi-parliamentary model, something akin to a monarchical version of the French Gaullist Fifth Republic: the government is responsible both to the Kaiser and the Reichstag, the military budget cannot be changed without the assent of the Reichstag and the Kaiser, there is universal (male) suffrage both at the federal and state level, the Reichstage has legislative initiative but the Kaiser has absolute veto. Add progressive expansion of the Bismarkian embryonic welfare system and and a philo-British foreign policy and you have a plausible receipt for the long-term success of the Greater German Empire. Something akin to a Super-Israel/Super-Sweden hybrid.

I'm not well versed in royalty, but perhaps some unification of the Hohenzollern and Habsburg lines within the 10-20 years after unification would solidify it, and aid Germany moderating to the UK side before WW1. Do you know how a unified monarchy could develop in this Germany?
Click to expand...

I'm working here under the assumption that you too are going to use a 1866-70 Bismarckian path for Grossdeutchsland unification. Under that assumption, a power-sharing model that keeps a primary role for the Hapsburg is to transform the former Empire in a Hapsburg personal union between the independent (but allied) St. Stephen Kingdom of Hungary, and the Kingdom of Austria-Bohemia (with Moravia and Slovenia) which becomes the sceond most important member of the federal German Empire. Such a scheme likely ought to allow a long-term reapprochement between the Hohenzollern and the Hapsburg dynasties.

Some dynastic marriages between the two lines might or might not be in order at this point, but are not as essential (politically, we are in an age where dynastic marriages are no more nearly as essential to shape alliances between countries as strategic, political, and cultural geopolitical factors). As far as I can tell, the familiy trees are such that you can make the lines (even more) related than they are, but a personal union is not really feasible in the mideium or long term. Besides, it probably would utterly unbalance the political balance of the German Empire, with a single monarch King of Austria, Prussia, and Hungary. :eek:

The best way to make a Kaiser leadership that is politically moderate and philo-British in late 1800s and early 1900s is to get rid of William II and/or keep his liberal father and British mother in charge. Nice PoDs to do so: a) Frederick III never develops throat cancer and lives to a ripe old age (1910s-1920s) like his father b) William II does not suffer birth trauma so he does not develop a bully personality to overcompensate, and his relationship with his parents is less ambivalent c) William II is killed in a shooting circus stunt accident in 1888 when he challenged half-inebriated Annie Oakley to shoot a cigar in his lips.

Another dynastic development which I instead suggest you is a marriage between the Crown Prince William III and Queen regnant Wilhelmina of Netherlands (or their respective children). This paves the way for a close alliance between the German Empire and Netherlands, personal union in the next generation, and eventually political union.

More discussion about your last points later.
 

JJohnson

Banned
[bump]

Is there anyone with map-skills that could place this map together with this one (1, 3, 4, 8 - 15), plus Luxembourg, into a Groß-Deutschland? The Sudetenlands should be annexed to Saxony, Bavaria, and Austrian Silesia to Silesia that they border. Sudetenland bordering Lower and Upper Austria would become parts of those lands, as in this 1943 map colors them.

Many thanks in advance,

James
 
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