Germany has a 9th Army in 1914 (200,000 more men called up)

trajen777

Banned
Lets say that of the class of 1913 (see below) of the 1,328,019 men available for service they add another 200,000 men to be called up, or 505,000, vs the 305,000 they did call up. This would still leave 500,000 uncalled men for service vs the 700,000 that were left off the rolls.
Now in the Shlef plan your 9th army sweeps Lille to Amiens to Rouen and Caen.

1. Does the BEF withdraw in front of these forces to Caen and then to Britain?
2. Does it stay in the battle and fight the B of Marne and risk being cut off ?

I would say withdrawal and not be available for the B of Marne.

If so does France lose the B of Marne and lose or hold the Germans at Paris? I feel however in the long run this extra lost territory would be fatal to the Allies?


http://www.greatwar.com/scripts/openExtra.asp?extra=10
A typical 1913 Army class, of which 305,000 had
been required (a figure increased by the German "Peace Strength
Law of 1912" to be effective by October 1915 even if war had not
broken out) is listed as:

20 year olds: 587,888
21 year olds: 380,331
22 year olds: 305,619
older & younger 54,181

Total 1,328,019

Of this lot, 118,300 were posted to the Landsturm, 86,911 to the
Ersatz Reserve, and only 305,675 to the ACTIVE units(or about 1/4
of those in the class). The remaining 700,000+ not included in
these figures were "put back" for any reason imaginable.(called
"Restanten"), and were not required to serve ONLY in peacetime.
Rejected men, which ran no more than 5 or 6 per cent, were liable
for no service. These again could be reexamined should war be
declared. Ersatz Reserve men were usually those who were fit for
duty but were excused for economical or minor physical defects.
This group would comprise those who would fill the ranks quickly
in time of war.
 
There was no room on the western front to fit another army, they'd have to be deployed behind 1st and 2nd Armies. Such an Army could be used to fill the empty space between Antwerp, the Coast and the front on the Marne and allow Germany to win the Race to the Sea and thus the war.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Lets say that of the class of 1913 (see below) of the 1,328,019 men available for service they add another 200,000 men to be called up, or 505,000, vs the 305,000 they did call up. This would still leave 500,000 uncalled men for service vs the 700,000 that were left off the rolls.
Now in the Shlef plan your 9th army sweeps Lille to Amiens to Rouen and Caen.

We have done this thread of a 9th or even 10th army. Wiking does a lot of the work on it, but basically you would have a very hard time using an extra army the west due to logistical constraints, so it is likely stationed in the east. Generally speaking plans in the east would call for either a second army to defend East Prussia or for the second army to strike south out of Prussia to cutoff the Congress of Poland (more likely). At various times plans were considered that included up to 4 armies stationed in east Poland.

If you jump to a war situation, you will see the west go much as OTL until we get to the point the begin to transfer the two or three corps to the east. Then there is a chance that it goes much better in the west. We have had several threads on this matter, but I am not one who can give you corp by corp action and effects in the west early in the war. The extra army in the east will mean things go much better for the Germans, and a lot will depend on how the Russian change their plans compared to OTL. We likely see a lot less pressure on the Austrians since an extra German army will tie up the attention of at least one Russian Army. And if the Austrians can do better early in the war, then the effects are profound.




@wiking
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Yes, if you wanted to fund it.
The German industry would have found no problem manufacturing these kits. The main problem would be horses and food, but Germany did not face food shortage in 1914.

Funding? You do know the way Germany funded the war IOTL.
 
You would also need to bring along the logistical sinews of munitions, supplies and foodstuff among with that particular Army and not congest the front line of more foot & horse transport traffic to slow down the other German Armies already at the frontlines of the Western Front.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
The German industry would have found no problem manufacturing these kits. The main problem would be horses and food, but Germany did not face food shortage in 1914.

Funding? You do know the way Germany funded the war IOTL.


If you mean in the war, I believe it was mostly internal bonds. Since Germany was blockaded, its imports was limited so it did not face a cash flow crisis like the UK was about to go through in early 1917.

If you mean prewar, via taxes. Germany spent less on its army than some of its rivals, so the funding would have been there. Internal politics get quite complicated, but my guess is an extra army would have been funded mostly by higher taxes with lesser cut to some social programs. You might also see naval cuts. One of the main issue holding up the increased army was the limiting of combat officers to Prussian nobility. It is the reason you see the square formations prewar.


Now to the memory stuff from about 4 years ago, so there is some risk of memory slippage. The Germans spent about 2 billion a year on the army, so lets say it takes an 1/8 of that for the additional army, so 250 million. It would have been about 4 marks a year, but most of the funds will stay domestic, so it should be a bearable burden.
 
Yes, if you wanted to fund it.

Ok, so this is something planned far enough ahead to have the equipment built. Not a last minute decision leaving six months or less to scrounge up cannons & the rest. One of the multiple problems in fielding the half dozen new reserve corps in November 1914 was the difficulty in providing a full kit of artillery & MG.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Ok, so this is something planned far enough ahead to have the equipment built. Not a last minute decision leaving six months or less to scrounge up cannons & the rest. One of the multiple problems in fielding the half dozen new reserve corps in November 1914 was the difficulty in providing a full kit of artillery & MG.

They did multi year funding bills for the army, so yes, expanding the army in 1914 is probably a 1912 or earlier decision. It has been a few years since I read up on the bills, but seems like they did them on about the frequency of the naval funding bills.

Now if you are looking for an ATL where the Germans have a large active army in 1914, I would suggest mobilizing an existing reserve formation. From time to time, the Germans would bring a reserve formation to active status for training, so i guess you could write an ATL where there might be a corp or two extra in active status as the war starts.

IMO the best realistic way to buff the Germany army for WW1 is not bigger, but better. Things such as adding a couple of regiments of trucks were almost funded by the Reichstag. There we also discussions of funding other support type battalions (armored cars, etc) that did not run into the Prussian combat arms officer issue. I think you can write an interesting ATL where the war goes much better in the west due to the heroic actions of a couple hundred trucks accelerating the rate of march of infantry divisions. Where armored cars are out front slowing down the at times chaotic reinforcement schedules of the French.
 
You would also need to bring along the logistical sinews of munitions, supplies and foodstuff among with that particular Army and not congest the front line of more foot & horse transport traffic to slow down the other German Armies already at the frontlines of the Western Front.

The choker for the German 1st 2d, & 3rd Armies was the restoration of railway service in their wake. The Eisenbahnbautruppen numbers were roughly 3/5th of requirement by my estimate. Adding another army on the right means they'd be less than half of requirement since the kilometers of railway to service is roughly doubled. Supply of artillery ammunition by horse draught is not very practical much beyond 50-70 km. To keep up with demand for 7.7, 10.5, & 15 cm cannon ammunition you absolutely must have railways. Cannal or blue water ships can under some situations substitute, but mostly its railroads.
 
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