Germany follows the Goering stratgy in 1940 and 1941

[Jericho7son]

Where does this total air control come from? Also, seeing as though it’s a fairly popular subject, do you have any sources for the Stuka being an “effective anti-ship weapon”?



As long as the British have aircraft carriers, they will have fighters as well.



I’m surprised no-one else has trotted this gem out, but:
“It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition.”
Admiral Andrew Browne Cunningham

The total air control comes from the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica being deployed in large numbers in southern Spain, you are welcome to examine the wiki list of sunken British warships of WW2, you will see numerous destroyers lost to JU-87 attacks during the Dunkirk evacuation, and three cruisers and numerous other ships sunken during the Crete operations (along with the Warspite being damaged by JU-87 attacks) Because of it's near 90 degree attack envelopes it was the most accurate bomber of that day

They will not have carrier fighters in anything like the numbers needed to actively contest the skies over Gibraltar in August 1940

Yeah thats great that he said that, there was also a standing order issued during the Norway and Dunkirk evacuations to not allow capital ships within JU-87 range, and there was a reason for it

 

[Jericho7son]

Illustrious was damaged by Stukas - over 80 of them in two separate attacks over two days according to wiki - and I believe the serious damage was done on the second day. This was also in 1941 when many of the Stuka pilots will have had more experience then they do ITTL.

Illustrious had to be nearly completely rebuilt after she was attacked by JU-87's (she was out of action for a year) You may be thinking of the hit that penetrated the armored flight deck on the second wave, but she was critically damaged in the first wave and was only saved from a catestrophic burn out of the ship by the grace of god

Her aft fire fighting systems where disabled by the first pair of bombs that smashed through the aft lift (which is why she had to steam into grand harbor still on fire, because she couldn't put them out), which did lots of damage in its own right (including to her steering), but then she narrowly avoided death when a 500kg bomb passed right through one of the aft pom poms and clean through the ship before detonating along side of it instead of inside of it, that hit caused a list and flooding, but had it detonated in the aft part of the ship, with the fire fighting disabled (and that part of the ship already on fire), the fire would have spread further and likely forced her to be abandoned, and an additional hit, hit on the aft lift again (again already on fire, critically damaged and with no ability to put the fire out) and didn't detonate

she was 98 percent killed

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Illustrious had to be nearly completely rebuilt after she was attacked by JU-87's (she was out of action for a year) ...

she was 98 percent killed

98 percent is overstating it if she sailed all the way to America to be repaired?

 

[Jericho7son]

Also they are trying to sink battleships, not a carrier. Big difference in armour and protection. remember the LW trained up an antishipping force to use in 1941, it wasn't there in 1940.
Its been said that if they sneak the BB's in at night, or in bad weather, they only get a short time to fire. True. But 30 minutes firing by the Nelrods lands around 400 16" bricks on the target. Which wont be there any longer.

There are over a dozen destroyers lost in the channel in 1940 which disagree with that statement that they couldn't sink ships with JU-87s at that time

HMS Nelson and Rodney would be even more of a direct ask for the ships to be heavily damaged than what I imagined the previous poster was saying (I assumed ships steaming in and out at 28 knots... not those slow ladies which with the same sort of fire program I suggested would be 60 (or if it was nelson who was always slower than the brochure after her sea mine injuries) or even 50 miles off shore when dawn would break, barring a golden hit she wouldn't be in any particular danger of being sunk, but put half a dozen 500kg bombs on a battleship shes going to be in the yard a long long time

 

[Jericho7son]

98 percent is overstating it if she sailed all the way to America to be repaired?

She had emergency repairs conducted in Malta, Egypt and South Africa before ultimately being rebuilt in Norfolk, again out of action for a year, and had not 1, but 2 hits that would have killed the ship had the bombs detonated, which speaks to the point that the JU-87 could put the munitions on target on a capital ship

 

[Rickshaw]

Illustrious was an unusual case. She was damaged because her deck armour failed. It was originally made in Czechoslovakia just before the outbreak of war. There are some who considered that to have been enough of an explanation for a valid conspiracy. However, I suspect it was just that they didn't know how to manufacture to the required standard. Ju87s were effective anti-shipping aircraft in the Mediterranean where the ability of the target to manufacture was limited and there was no effective counter-air available. When the RN did bring carriers into the fight, the Ju87s were limited in what they could do. Illustrious was the only fleet carrier with foreign made deck armour.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

She had emergency repairs conducted in Malta, Egypt and South Africa before ultimately being rebuilt in Norfolk, again out of action for a year, and had not 1, but 2 hits that would have killed the ship had the bombs detonated, which speaks to the point that the JU-87 could put the munitions on target on a capital ship

Ah the wiki article doesn’t make that entirely clear. Thank you for the clarification.

It would seem the LW mission killed an aircraft carrier that’s true, but the bombs not detonating is an important point to note. LW munitions are not reliable (or just as unreliable as everyone else’s I suppose) but that’s against a second generation carrier. The ships everyone else was mentioning are battleships. Much harder beasts to kill.

They can put the hits on target, that isn’t doubted. But and I believe that this is the key point you’re referencing LW anti-ship operations from 1941 with a wealth of experience behind them. Experience they won’t have in 1940.

 

[Jericho7son]

Ah the wiki article doesn’t make that entirely clear. Thank you for the clarification.

It would seem the LW mission killed an aircraft carrier that’s true, but the bombs not detonating is an important point to note. LW munitions are not reliable (or just as unreliable as everyone else’s I suppose) but that’s against a second generation carrier. The ships everyone else was mentioning are battleships. Much harder beasts to kill.

They can put the hits on target, that isn’t doubted. But and I believe that this is the key point you’re referencing LW anti-ship operations from 1941 with a wealth of experience behind them. Experience they won’t have in 1940.

In 1940 they put over a dozen destroyers on the bottom with JU-87's and during the Norway evacuation there was an express order issued that the capital ships where not to steam within JU-87 range, because they respected the fact that bombs could and would be put on target by them and hurt the ships, this was not the case for German medium bombers like JU-88's and HE-111's at higher altitudes in the north sea, where they never hit anything, but the JU-87s could and did hit ships that they could get at and could carry 500kg bombs

It's extremely unlikely baring a golden hit, like a drop down the stack or hitting or fires hitting something not properly secured for a battleship to be killed by JU-87's of 1940, but they don't have to kill it, 500kg bombs would do lots of damage including starting fires, and force them out of the fight

 

[Deleted member 94680]

In 1940 they put over a dozen destroyers on the bottom with JU-87's

Destroyers are more vulnerable to hits by lighter aircraft bombs, it’s part of their function.

and during the Norway evacuation there was an express order issued that the capital ships where not to steam within JU-87 range, because they respected the fact that bombs could and would be put on target by them and hurt the ships, this was not the case for German medium bombers like JU-88's and HE-111's at higher altitudes in the north sea, where they never hit anything, but the JU-87s could and did hit ships that they could get at and could carry 500kg bombs

The Norway evacuation, although an important operation, can not really be compared to the defence of Gibraltar. The order of magnitude of the importance of Gibraltar is so much higher, higher losses are almost certain to be entertained before withdrawal can be countenanced.

It's extremely unlikely baring a golden hit, like a drop down the stack or hitting or fires hitting something not properly secured for a battleship to be killed by JU-87's of 1940, but they don't have to kill it, 500kg bombs would do lots of damage including starting fires, and force them out of the fight

Battleship killing by early war aircraft almost always needs golden hits in some degree or another. But you look at the cumulative damage needed to force a battleship from action and look at the aircraft required to inflict it, it would require a fair amount of luck for the LW to manage it.

 

[McPherson]

Also they are trying to sink battleships, not a carrier. Big difference in armour and protection. remember the LW trained up an antishipping force to use in 1941, it wasn't there in 1940.

Its been said that if they sneak the BB's in at night, or in bad weather, they only get a short time to fire. True. But 30 minutes firing by the Nelrods lands around 400 16" bricks on the target. Which wont be there any longer.

Not to mention we have examples of air power versus determined naval surface raiders attacking land targets that we can actually use to measure and predict outcomes. It must be said from these actual WW II examples, that at sea, as well as land, in most cases you have to practice combined arms (surface and air forces) to stop the raiders. I provided an example above (Samar), but to stay strictly on topic, the Germans would have to have a floating component as well as a land and air component to make an attack on a fortified naval base (Gibraltar) work. I think even a shambles like the Singapore Bastion Defense illustrates how it would actually work. And the Germans do not have the proper force mix, logistics or even skill sets to make it work. Not in that terrain, over that non-existent communications network, or with the Spanish fighting them every meter of the way. I have to be convinced the Spanish would not fight first. Nobody has even cleared that hurdle, yet.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Not in that terrain, over that non-existent communications network, or with the Spanish fighting them every meter of the way. I have to be convinced the Spanish would not fight first. Nobody has even cleared that hurdle, yet.

Mainly because evidence either way is rather scarce, but what evidence exists (MacIntyre’s Operation Mincemeat has quite a bit on the Intelligence war in Spain, for example) suggests the Spanish would resist an invasion and had no intention of joining WWII on either side.

It’s a circle that can’t be squared and so is ignored. Usually the best that is suggested is handwaves along the lines of “Hitler will offer them more” or “the Spanish won’t be able to stop the Germans rolling over the border”. Both of which OTL suggests the actual Germans thought otherwise

 

[McPherson]

Illustrious was an unusual case. She was damaged because her deck armour failed. It was originally made in Czechoslovakia just before the outbreak of war. There are some who considered that to have been enough of an explanation for a valid conspiracy. However, I suspect it was just that they didn't know how to manufacture to the required standard. Ju87s were effective anti-shipping aircraft in the Mediterranean where the ability of the target to manufacture (strategically maneuver) was limited and there was no effective counter-air available. When the RN did bring carriers into the fight, the Ju87s were limited in what they could do. Illustrious was the only fleet carrier with foreign made deck armour.

Message a bit garbled but understood.

About aircraft carriers and the German option (^^^). Land based airfields cannot move or MASS airpower in a time dependent fashion well. Sure aircraft carriers can be sunk, but here is the thing. An air land-base has a field capacity for aircraft and air traffic control sortie mission limit. BY WW II metrics this was about 50-80 aircraft per field. No one knows why this happened and even today no-one is sure why military airfields have this practical limit for service cycling an air wing on a single mission sortie. It just is. To mass land based air forces you have to rendezvous sub-sorties from multiple sometimes widely separated air fields and then once formed up in mid-air, go fly the ingress to the alerted enemy who in daylight throws the intruders a happy birthday party. The intruders may have burned up 25% of their time aloft in gas just forming up. If this sounds familiar, it should because it is the BATTLE OF BRITAIN lesson on how land based air and daylight bombing works. The British tried night bombing and the bomber stream to get around the time aloft to rendezvous problem and avoid day fighters. THAT is also a BOB's your uncle lesson.

Aircraft carriers per ship have the same air traffic control problem. About 80-100 planes is the practical limit. HOWEVER... Each aircraft carrier can handle to that limit and you can MASS and MOVE aircraft carriers. This means you can put hundreds of planes over a target quickly. Much faster than say trying to form up and send a land based air force to bomb anything. Mass means an overwhelmed defense (Chu'Uk or Truk Lesson). Movement means good luck finding them if you are the Germans. Illustrious was parked with a bullseye on her when they got her. Not the way to use aircraft carriers in a Spanish option. Bob and weave; dash in and out, like with the battleships. That would be the Taranto lesson. BTW the British could operate their aircraft carriers AT NIGHT.

We can see this all happen in the target servicing in the way various air forces bombed in close air support and battlefield interdiction missions. Naval air when massed tended to be more present in numbers and on-call (CAP) than land based air (France 1944) (Pacific 1944). That is because the aircraft carriers brought the fun to the party in more numbers of aircraft than adjacent land bases to the front. And as has been mentioned, if your specialty is hitting relatively small fast moving objects with lots of room to maneuver, you are going to be GOOD at it. Guess what the British and the Italians seem to be good at? (Mediterranean 1940). Germans (Mediterranean 1940-1941) are not so for them. Practice apparently did not help them much, either, so they had to develop radio guided bombs to adjunct their lack of results and even then they effed it all up. It took several tries with Henschels to hit the Roma. One BAT= 1 sunk Japanese destroyer. Practice makes perfect.

 

[marathag]

However, note that Tiger tanks and similar weapons were not planned or produced until after the Germans started fighting Soviet tanks and realized they had been outclassed

Work on heavier tanks started before the war, with the

in 1937.
this led to the VK30.01 prototypes, that after encounters with heavily armored French and British
Tanks led to the VK36

and finally VK45 where you had something that looked like a Tiger

 

[marathag]

And all this over a worn out and fought over Spanish rail network.

That was of a different gauge, just like the USSR, so French and German Locos and Rolling Stock just won't work

 

[CalBear]

But think about it. After Hitler, it was unlikely that GP Ost would continue. Given Hitler's parkinsons, he's probably dead by the late 1950s.
The only people who want to keep it going are Himmler and the other "hardline" Nazis.
And they would definitely lose in the post-Hitler power struggle against the more numerous "moderates" like Goering, Speer, and most of the OKW.
Heydrich would only support the winning side, and that means betraying Himmler.
The "moderates" would probably classify those left in Eastern Europe as Aryanised Slavs, which means they wouldn't be exterminated.
By then it would be the early 1960s.

Are you F###ing serious? By the late 50s there wouldn't have BEEN a population to speak of in General Government or the rest of the targeted population in the East. It takes no time at all to wipe out urban population via "Extermination through Labor" and ethnic cleansing (how long to you expect a train load of Czechs to survive when they are dumped onto the open Siberian Steppe with nothing but the clothes on their back?).

All that kept the BanHammer in it's case is your last paragraph in Post # 135. You just used up all the chances for you and your descendants to the 10th Generation. You are on notice that you come close to this line again and it will be the last time.

Kicked for a week.

 

[McPherson]

With regards to attacks on shippingas part of the Spanish option. Bombing puts holes topside, so the ship still floats and either makes it to port or is crew scuttled as non-repairable; if fire ruins the hull. If the bomb is properly designed, even a 227 kg can punch through capital ship deck armor, because it did (Warspite?). What matters after the hit is the fusing and the effector. I think the LW used SAPPY ordnance adapted from bunker busters on land, not true purpose designed AP or SAPPY ship sinkers, so duds-ville, man. And it should be noted, that if one wanted to sink a battleship, there was only one way to do it and make it stick.

Torpedoes and/or opening holes below the waterline. That is what the British and Italians did in the Med. Every ship kill they accomplished meant some kind of in-flooding below the water line. Germans, who were not submariners, seem to have had trouble with the concept. Witness all the dive bombed freighters they hit that made it to Malta.

 

[McPherson]

In 1940 they put over a dozen destroyers on the bottom with JU-87's and during the Norway evacuation there was an express order issued that the capital ships where not to steam within JU-87 range, because they respected the fact that bombs could and would be put on target by them and hurt the ships, this was not the case for German medium bombers like JU-88's and HE-111's at higher altitudes in the north sea, where they never hit anything, but the JU-87s could and did hit ships that they could get at and could carry 500kg bombs

It's extremely unlikely baring a golden hit, like a drop down the stack or hitting or fires hitting something not properly secured for a battleship to be killed by JU-87's of 1940, but they don't have to kill it, 500kg bombs would do lots of damage including starting fires, and force them out of the fight

I had to check that.

I count NINE/(Ten if you count the one that blew up from post action damage.), and that is in the Channel, or in port (BOB); or off DUNKIRK taking on troops and not all of them were Stukas. So... uhm hyperbole?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

In 1940 they put over a dozen destroyers on the bottom with JU-87's and during the Norway evacuation there was an express order issued that the capital ships where not to steam within JU-87 range, because they respected the fact that bombs could and would be put on target by them and hurt the ships, this was not the case for German medium bombers like JU-88's and HE-111's at higher altitudes in the north sea, where they never hit anything, but the JU-87s could and did hit ships that they could get at and could carry 500kg bombs

It's extremely unlikely baring a golden hit, like a drop down the stack or hitting or fires hitting something not properly secured for a battleship to be killed by JU-87's of 1940, but they don't have to kill it, 500kg bombs would do lots of damage including starting fires, and force them out of the fight

Could Stuka Carry a 500 kg in 1940?

Let alone hit a maneuvering warship with it?

As we are reliant on the B variant for any 1940 style ops (the D being a 1941+ creature) - we are limited to a 250 kg bomb and a brace of 4 x 50 kg bombs under wing

So no.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

As much as unmentionable sea mammal threads annoy me (why do they keep coming back?) - and I consider “Spanish option” threads an adjunct to the USM family - I’ll be damned if I don’t learn a lot reading through them or refuting to the latest handwave/whataboutery.

 

[Jericho7son]

Could Stuka Carry a 500 kg in 1940?

Let alone hit a maneuvering warship with it?

As we are reliant on the B variant for any 1940 style ops (the D being a 1941+ creature) - we are limited to a 250 kg bomb and a brace of 4 x 50 kg bombs under wing

So no.

leaving the rear gunner home and flying without a full fuel load yes they could, this was done against some of the maginot fortifications

as we have now discussed very thoroughly, yes JU-87's could hit warships at sea, from destroyers to cruisers to capital ships, and the Royal Navy was acutely aware of this based on orders issued in the norway evac, damage they actually did incur in the dunkirk and crete evacuation, and the temporary relocation of the fleet from Alexandria when Rommel reached Alemein