i often hear this claim that if the Germans in ww1 had fought till the end like they did in ww2, the second world war with germany as the agressor would not have happened mainly due to the idea that the stab in the back myth would not have leg to stand on if the defeated German armies and took a lot of territory inside germany, but could the german empire even continue to resist in to 1919 like the nazis did till 1945 or would it have collapsed long before the allies marched on berlin
Germany fights to the bitter end in ww1, no ww2?
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raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
If Walter Rathenau had his way:
Citation and first three paragraphs, rich with all sorts of ironies. If you have JSTOR access, I encourage you to check it out.
Insurrectionary Warfare: The German Debate about a Levée en Masse in October 1918 Author(s): Michael Geyer
Source: The Journal of Modern History , Vol. 73, No. 3 (September 2001), pp. 459-527 Published by: The University of Chicago Press
Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/339124
white is black and black is white; we are through the looking glass here people
I bit doubt that Germany would had fought until bitter end during WW1 unless Entente wouldn't had demanded unconditional surrending and occupation/dismantling the empire. German government wasn't insane maniac and German army begun to be very exhausted.
But even if on some reason Germany would had continued to fight Germany probably would had been dismantled back to its constituents and probably even Prussia would had been severely weakened so it can't re-unite Germany. But probably Entente would be too in bad condition after this war.
But even if on some reason Germany would had continued to fight Germany probably would had been dismantled back to its constituents and probably even Prussia would had been severely weakened so it can't re-unite Germany. But probably Entente would be too in bad condition after this war.
It's not just Germany fighting to the bitter end, its the Allies getting to the border of Germany (never mind into Germany), and accepting the surrender. Granted, both sides were tired and the Spanish Flu was beginning to wreak it's particular havoc. If you're looking for a POD, I suspect you need to remove Wilson (or at least the Fourteen Points).
I seem to recall an AH somewhere that Germans requested an armistice (as OTL), but the reply was "Nuts!", and the allies pushed to Berlin ...
I seem to recall an AH somewhere that Germans requested an armistice (as OTL), but the reply was "Nuts!", and the allies pushed to Berlin ...
I have a pdf of 'Insurrectionary Warfare: The German Debate about a Levée en Masse in October 1918 Author(s): Michael Geyer' for free
Of course there is the matter of whether you trust me or not
But you can see my posting history. I am a regular poster here and will get nothing by sending you a virus
So if you want the pdf then dm me
Of course there is the matter of whether you trust me or not
But you can see my posting history. I am a regular poster here and will get nothing by sending you a virus
So if you want the pdf then dm me
It's a tough one, becuase yes the stabbed in the back myth won't happen as per OTL, but it's not like Germany will be happy with the result or that some kind of revanchist group like the NASDP won't find something to get upset about and blame the usual scapegoats for it. It's how much it would resonate that matters, but additionally the stabbed in the back myth was not the only string to the Nazi's bow when it came to appealing to the people.
As to resisting to 1919, I'd have thought so easily!
It not like there aren't still a lot of German soldiers around by the the end of 1918, the army has not collapsed*, and Germany is a big country advancing into it will not be fun. And frankly it always pretty easy to get support to resist an invasion especially as the name of the game will now be keep the most favorable circumstances to negotiate a peace from. And victorious armies who have had 4 years of western front trench warfare, and then fought their way across Germany to put their flags in Berlin will negotiate a peace that will make the ToV look like a stern look over the dinner table.
*not being in any shape to launch million men offensives is not the same thing
As to resisting to 1919, I'd have thought so easily!
It not like there aren't still a lot of German soldiers around by the the end of 1918, the army has not collapsed*, and Germany is a big country advancing into it will not be fun. And frankly it always pretty easy to get support to resist an invasion especially as the name of the game will now be keep the most favorable circumstances to negotiate a peace from. And victorious armies who have had 4 years of western front trench warfare, and then fought their way across Germany to put their flags in Berlin will negotiate a peace that will make the ToV look like a stern look over the dinner table.
*not being in any shape to launch million men offensives is not the same thing
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So the war continues into 1919 by which point it ends with French colonial troops, British and Americans parading in Unter den Linen and Serbs, Greeks and Italians in Munich. Yes ok you don't have ww2 TTL given Germany got utterly crushed in 1919 and likely ended losing even more territory to France and Poland.
But the Allies did occupy a large swath of Germany IOTL; the Rhineland with three large bridgeheads east of the Rhine. And there were French sorties, e.g. to Frankfurt and the Ruhr occupation. In addition, territories and people were taken away in the east, the north and the west. - All this didn't avert said myth.
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
But they were administrative, unresisted occupations, not conquest occupations where the Germans saw themselves beat fair and square.
how likely is that the allies mainly the French start demanding unconditional surrender?
wouldnt the americans prop of the germans like they did after ww2 against the new USSR?
how would the borders be like realisticly would germany eastern front resemble otl east germany borders?
This could get interesting. The Germans decide to fight on, the Allies therefore decide on unconditional surrender, and so push to Berlin. At this point in history, Germany / A-H borders the - now Communist! -
Not sure. Probably not very since unlike Allies during WW2 them have not so much power during WW1.
I don't think that USA felt communist Russia being serious threat. The country was midst of civil war at this point.
Boots on the ground nevertheless, and, in the case of the French, not quite few, including a bunch of colonial troops, just to hassle the Germans. In addition, the Versailles Dictate turned Germany pretty much defenceless, leaving her at the mercy of the Allies, who were free to invade her anytime (see Ruhr occupation).
Actually the Ruhr occupation was initially resisted passively, though it didn't succeed in getting the French out and the German government had to stop passive resistance in September 1923 as it was harming their economy.
- 1,500 French and British troops originally landed in Arkhangelsk[45]
- 14,378 British troops in North Russia[46]
- 1,800 British troops in Siberia[47]
- 50,000 Romanian troops belonging to the 6th Romanian Corps under General Ioan Istrate, in Bessarabia.[48]: 375–376 [49]: 167–168
- 23,351 Greeks, who withdrew after three months (part of I Army Corps under Maj. Gen. Konstantinos Nider, comprising 2nd and 13th Infantry Divisions, in the Crimea, and around Odessa and Kherson)[50]
- 15,000 French also in the Southern Russia intervention
- 40,000 British troops in the Caucasus region by January 1919[9]
- 13,000 Americans (in the Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok regions)[36][37]
- 11,500 Estonians in northwestern Russia[34]
- 2,500 Italians in the Arkhangelsk region and Siberia[51]
- 1,300 Italians in the Murmansk region.[52]
- 150 Australians (mostly in the Arkhangelsk regions)[53]
- 950 British troops in Trans-Caspia[8]
- 70,000+ Japanese soldiers in the Eastern region
- 4,192 Canadians in Siberia, 600 Canadians in Arkhangelsk[54]
- 2,300 Chinese troops in Vladivostok[11]
raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
I don't think you get it.
These are examples of Allied powers beating the Germans, but not beating the Germans 'fair and square'. These are actions taken by the Allies after they have an unparalleled military edge gained in its final and widest margin by German acceptance of armistice terms designed to render the Germans militarily helpless.
These examples of beatings, even by foreigners, do not discredit German military honor to German military fanboys, they *strengthen* the 'stab in the back' myth by adding credibility to the idea that whoever X (unpopular group or politician) in Germany who 'made' the German State and Army sign the armistice is to blame for everything that followed. Even though very-right figures in October and November 1918 saw no alternative to the armistice and were for it. (or they were "for it before they were against it") little things like facts were not going to get in the way of more emotionally satisfying and politically useful myths that the rightist factions supported the Army's effective fight/resistance till the end and their enemies were the November criminals who had a revolution and forced them to quit. In reality, the German left, in a very German manner, practically waited for 'permission' to revolt as the regime admitted the war had failed and monarchs (Bill) and high commanders (Erich Ludy) decided to abandon the country's territory.
