Germany Doesn't Betray Russia

Eurofed

Banned
In one other thread, he appeared to be using "anti-fascist" as a synonym for "Germanophobe".

Bad choice of words, as I said in that other thread. I was just trying to label those "Hitler is better alive than dead" guys that wanted Nazism to do its grim work to extreme outcomes and embrace all consequences (Europe destroyed and the remains picked by Stalinism) as long as the sins of fascism were avenged in a barbaric orgy of blood and fire. Sometimes it was just sheer Germanophobia, but otherwise I struggle to find words to define it different from anti-fascist fanatism.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Although I think Eurofed is using his support of a Unioted Europe to disguise his fascist beliefs.

If you take a look to the thread where I passionately struggle to find ways to make the Roman Empire survive, I assume you would understand how much this is false.

However, it is true that I despise nationalistic Balkanization as an absolute evil, and I embrace a decade or two of moderate efficient not-gratuitously murderous "Napoleonic" authoritarianism, and hegemony by whatever lead nation pulls the feat, Spaniards, French, Germans, Russians, if that be the price to buy lasting continental unity in peace, prosperity, and progress. Regimes go, nations last. Ends and means. If you deem this "fascist", feel free.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Meanwhile the largest ENGLISH speaking nation in the world is just twiddling their thumbs having fun :p

If you can jump in time machine and convince the 1940 American public to declare war on Germany, Italy, France, Russia, and Japan to save the British Empire, feel free.
 
I was just trying to label those "Hitler is better alive than dead" guys that wanted Nazism to do its grim work to extreme outcomes and embrace all consequences (Europe destroyed and the remains picked by Stalinism) as long as the sins of fascism were avenged in a barbaric orgy of blood and fire.

You seriously think people wanted the Nazis to stay just so Europe could be destroyed?

Do you really think that a Nazi dominated Europe is preferable to the allies liberating it?


Sometimes it was just sheer Germanophobia, but otherwise I struggle to find words to define it different from anti-fascist fanatism.

No it's not it's Germaniophobia or even anti-fascism. The Germans and their allies all had systems which were fascist or resembled fascism but we didn't go to war for that.

Germany invaded Poland, our ally and Mr Chamberlian not Churchill declared war a man devoted to peace so much he is scolded for it now.

We did not go to war to cleanse Europe of Fascism we went to war to defend the independence of Poland and other states which were attacked.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Besing 'stensibly plawsbel timelines on fantsies of nationalistic revenge is considahed bahed fawm, ole-bhoy. *sips tea* Y'see, der-bhoy, heeh in Britain, we dante go een f'this "Oh, but the Jahmans were just misunderstood!" lahk. Now, dante get me the wrong weh, wot, I'm mustahd-keen on Jahmans, but back in the Fawties it turns out that eehen the 'stensible mohdruts wah plenning to conkah an' enslave Yurp, which is simply not the done thing, ole-bhoy. Have some tea.

1940s Germany is not the issue. It's how the tea-suppers viciously stonewalled any attempt to build the unity of Europe from Charles V to federal EU. It's the bloody "balance of power" thing that needs to be punished. And of course there's the fun in making the paranoid delusions of Euroskeptic loonies about the "European fascist superstate" actually realized.

Anyway that's a not-very plausible scenario but let's not get off topic.

I disgree of course but there's the appropriate thread to discuss it here.
 
If you take a look to the thread where I passionately struggle to find ways to make the Roman Empire survive, I assume you would understand how much this is false.

Where do you think Fascism came from?

However, it is true that I despise nationalistic Balkanization as an absolute evil, and I embrace a decade or two of moderate efficient not-gratuitously murderous "Napoleonic" authoritarianism, and hegemony by whatever lead nation pulls the feat, Spaniards, French, Germans, Russians, if that be the price to buy lasting continental unity in peace, prosperity, and progress. Regimes go, nations last. Ends and means. If you deem this "fascist", feel free.

Well it is actually. You're a fascist.
 
If you take a look to the thread where I passionately struggle to find ways to make the Roman Empire survive, I assume you would understand how much this is false.

However, it is true that I despise nationalistic Balkanization as an absolute evil, and I embrace a decade or two of moderate efficient not-gratuitously murderous "Napoleonic" authoritarianism, and hegemony by whatever lead nation pulls the feat, Spaniards, French, Germans, Russians, if that be the price to buy lasting continental unity in peace, prosperity, and progress. Regimes go, nations last. Ends and means. If you deem this "fascist", feel free.

Huh?

The ideals of fascism originally were a return to the theories of the Romans - hence 'Fascism' from 'fasces' - the bundle of sticks around an axe symbolising the Roman magistrates power to carry out corporal and capital punishment.

Secondly, 'Napoleonic' authoritarianism was harldy non-murderous. although Bonaparte didn't go in for mass murder a la Hitler or Stalin, he wasn't above murder as a political weapon, and his attempts to control the entirity of Europe led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Frenchmen - let alone the Russian, Germans, Austrians, Spaniards, Egyptians, Portugesue, etc etc that were killed as a direct redult of his megalomania.

And while not wanting to get into an argument that should really be in PC - I very much disagree with your beliefs. Authoritarianism is universally bad, and should be resisted, not yearned for.
 

Eurofed

Banned
You seriously think people wanted the Nazis to stay just so Europe could be destroyed?

No, they wanted them to stay so their Germanophobic crusade could be fulfilled to extreme consequences, and did not care if Europe got destroyed or Stalinist in the process.

Do you really think that a Nazi dominated Europe is preferable to the allies liberating it?

I think that a coup that overthrows the Nazis in 1939-44 and leads to a sensible compromise peace where Germany keeps its ethnic territories and national unity, and half of Europe does not get Communist is greately preferable to OTL.

No it's not it's Germaniophobia or even anti-fascism. The Germans and their allies all had systems which were fascist or resembled fascism but we didn't go to war for that.

Germany invaded Poland, our ally and Mr Chamberlian not Churchill declared war a man devoted to peace so much he is scolded for it now.

We did not go to war to cleanse Europe of Fascism we went to war to defend the independence of Poland and other states which were attacked.

Of course, the main problem here was that Germany had a racist loon in charge that thought he could do to Slavs what the Yankee had done to the Native Americans, but with a different leader and chain of events, it could be ended up with Germany getting back Danzig, the Corridor, and Upper Silesia, in addition to Austria and Sudentenland, and that would have been the optimal outcome.

Of course, an even better outcome is that CPs (with Italy and USA) win WWI and build the proto-EU.
 
No, they wanted them to stay so their Germanophobic crusade could be fulfilled to extreme consequences, and did not care if Europe got destroyed or Stalinist in the process.



I think that a coup that overthrows the Nazis in 1939-44 and leads to a sensible compromise peace where Germany keeps its ethnic territories and national unity, and half of Europe does not get Communist is greately preferable to OTL.



Of course, the main problem here was that Germany had a racist loon in charge that thought he could do to Slavs what the Yankee had done to the Native Americans, but with a different leader and chain of events, it could be ended up with Germany getting back Danzig, the Corridor, and Upper Silesia, in addition to Austria and Sudentenland, and that would have been the optimal outcome.

Of course, an even better outcome is that CPs (with Italy and USA) win WWI and build the proto-EU.

Excuse me? What Death camps did we have in America? We didn't sterilize Native Americans we didn't participate in systematic mass killings. Liking the two shows massive ignorance.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Where do you think Fascism came from?

It was but picking a bygone pre-modern symbol to disguise a wholly-different ideology and socio-political movement. Fascism had as much to do with Romanitas as Nazism had to do with tribal Germanics and Communism with hunter-gatherer societes.

Well it is actually. You're a fascist.

I did not say that that would be the optimal outcome. There are plenty of ways in history to build lasting continental unity that are not done by fascists. Pretty much all national unifications in history are done by some means of militayr and political cohercion. But that cohercion quickly fades in the mists of history, while the positive effects of unity last. Move that from national to continental scale, the result does not change.
 
No, they wanted them to stay so their Germanophobic crusade could be fulfilled to extreme consequences, and did not care if Europe got destroyed or Stalinist in the process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

And who are "they" exactly?


I think that a coup that overthrows the Nazis in 1939-44 and leads to a sensible compromise peace where Germany keeps its ethnic territories and national unity, and half of Europe does not get Communist is greately preferable to OTL.

And I'm guessing by that anywhere where theres a German minority?

This is not preferable to OTL.


Of course, the main problem here was that Germany had a racist loon in charge that thought he could do to Slavs what the Yankee had done to the Native Americans, but with a different leader and chain of events, it could be ended up with Germany getting back Danzig, the Corridor, and Upper Silesia, in addition to Austria and Sudentenland, and that would have been the optimal outcome.

Do you really think the Germans are going to give the Germans and parts of and in Austias case entire nations?

Just because Hitler wanted it doesn't make it rightfully German.

Of course, an even better outcome is that CPs (with Italy and USA) win WWI and build the proto-EU.

Ignoring the absurd comment about the US being in the CP do you really think a defeated France,Britain and Russia would agree to a EU?

Also there would be no Polish free state as well as the pther ethnic minorities oppressed by the CP including the Armenians who would be wiped out.
 
Bad choice of words, as I said in that other thread. I was just trying to label those "Hitler is better alive than dead" guys that wanted Nazism to do its grim work to extreme outcomes and embrace all consequences (Europe destroyed and the remains picked by Stalinism) as long as the sins of fascism were avenged in a barbaric orgy of blood and fire. Sometimes it was just sheer Germanophobia, but otherwise I struggle to find words to define it different from anti-fascist fanatism.

I'm a Germanophile and a peacenik with no desire for any orgies of blood and fire but I'm also an old-fashioned liberal and the Nazi monstrosity had to be completely destroyed. It would have been better if this could have been done without so much bloodshed, so much destruction, so much ethnic cleansing, and such an advance of communism. It would have been far, far better still if the Nazis had never risen to power at all. But what the sane anti-Valkyrie crowd (and that's not all of us) is saying is that we don't think Valkyrie is such a panacea with regard to the first as the pro- side like to assume. It may well be possible to construct a Valkyrie scenario which foreshortens the war, lets more of Europe be saved by the western Allies, and so on but I'm not an expert on the matter and am without settled convictions.

The fact remains that you seem very willing to let horrifying regimes do implausibly well if it helps unite Europe and destroy Britain. And speaking of destroying Britain, I as a Briton True find it rather ironic that you're lecturing people about purely spiteful hate-TLs in which the ideology they disagree with must be stamped out at the expnese of plausibility...
 

Eurofed

Banned
The ideals of fascism originally were a return to the theories of the Romans - hence 'Fascism' from 'fasces' - the bundle of sticks around an axe symbolising the Roman magistrates power to carry out corporal and capital punishment.

Roman symbols were but an attempt to disguise a wholly modern socio-political phonomenon with links to a completely different pre-modern culture and political structure. Fascim had as much to do with Riomans as Nazism had to do with Germanic tribes, or Communism with hunter-gatherer societes.

Secondly, 'Napoleonic' authoritarianism was harldy non-murderous. although Bonaparte didn't go in for mass murder a la Hitler or Stalin, he wasn't above murder as a political weapon, and his attempts to control the entirity of Europe led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Frenchmen - let alone the Russian, Germans, Austrians, Spaniards, Egyptians, Portugesue, etc etc that were killed as a direct redult of his megalomania.

The deaths from Napoleonic Wars are wholly indistinguishable from all the deaths in the wars that the squabbling European nation-states provoked with their feuds before and after. The issue is whether the war may end in an outcome that ends the bloodshed in lasting unity for the foreseeable future, or it is but another round in the sterile merry-go-round of nationalist fighting.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Excuse me? What Death camps did we have in America? We didn't sterilize Native Americans we didn't participate in systematic mass killings. Liking the two shows massive ignorance.

The intentions and means were nowhere not so extreme of course, but it is a fact that the vast majority of Native Americans were wiped out and a new nation of settlers built in their place. The Lebenstraum took inspiration from that result, and other settler nations like Australia and Canada, among other sources (e.g. the fate of the Armenians), and devised to replicate it in Eastern Europe, no matter how extreme the means.
 
1940s Germany is not the issue.

If it's going to take over Europe, it most certainly is. I'm going to ask you a direct question:

Which is better: Europe united under a murderous dictatorship or Europe divided under democracies at peace?

It's how the tea-suppers viciously stonewalled any attempt to build the unity of Europe from Charles V to federal EU.

"Viciously"? You seem to believe that all Europeans feel the same rabid nationalism as you do. In fact, Europeans themselves have been foremost in foiling oneanother's bids for Universal Monarchy. Of course we've bankrolled them since this has often been considered a matter of national survival for us (your argument is also dependent on assuming that for Britain to follow its self interest by dividing Europe is bad because Britain is evil, whereas for Germany or whoever it is to follow its self-interest by establish hegemony in Europe is good), but lets look at it: what did we even do to Charles V? Then there's the Armada-period. So we defended ourselves from invasion, big deal. We also meddled in the Netherlands and France, but the Dutch and French had set the ball rolling by rebelling in the first place. Bourbon dominance was opposed at every turn by the Hapsburgs and vice versa right up until Napoleon, who of course had only a very few allies who were actually interested in the survival of his empire: when he was no longer in a position to hold the axe over them, practically everyone except the Danes and the Poles turned on him with the very nationalism he had unleashed. If all Europeans craved unity and only Evil British Scheming kept them from their destiny, why didn't the Continental System work? Not to mention the protracted period, mostly during the 18th Century, when Britain had governments commited to keeping us out of Europe (that was a substantial part of 18th century Toryism) because it was assumed that the "Balance of Power", ostensibly our invention, would look after itself. When WW1 rolled around, shouldn't the French people have risen with one voice to welcome the Germano-European Liberator and expell Perfidious Albion? Or maybe France actually wanted to foil Germany's hegemonic bid. They might not have succeeded without our help, but they wanted to, so evidently you want to impose European unity on unwilling Europeans. Of course by stopping Hitler we did our greatest possible service to humanity and nobody but a madman could deny this. And now we are of course sabotaging the EU. :rolleyes: I blame Poland.

It's the bloody "balance of power" thing that needs to be punished.

Nothing needs to happen. History isn't just. Its ruled by the iron and arbitrary fist of plausibility, trapped in the heavy cage of causality.

And of course there's the fun in making the paranoid delusions of Euroskeptic loonies about the "European fascist superstate" actually realized.

Except that fascism is inherently unfunny.

I have no association with these paranoid loonies, but I do think that your willingness to subject Europe to bloody dictatorship for its own good puts you in the analogous camp of Europhiles.
 
Do you really think the Germans are going to give the Germans and parts of and in Austias case entire nations?

Just because Hitler wanted it doesn't make it rightfully German.

Austria was 100% rightfully German territory. Not one single inch of the word rightfully belongs to murderous gangsters.
 

Eurofed

Banned
The fact remains that you seem very willing to let horrifying regimes do implausibly well if it helps unite Europe and destroy Britain.

Actually in the TL I built Britain is on the way to become an American satellite, and who knows maybe join the USA in the very long term, following the example of its old Dominions, European Jews and West Slavs are all alive, murderous Lebenstraum has been wholly dropped with the demise of Hitler and Himmler and the moderating influence of needed American alliance on fascist Europe. The TL wiped out Slav Bohemia-Moravia and western Poland from the map, admittedly, but Slavs from those areas are alive and dealt with Germanization or forced emigration to the Americas or designated homelands.

I think it is a nice compromise between plausibility (using the deus ex machina of Hitler's assassination, true, but then the man had a lot of assassination attempts and there's no way to give WWII a decent German victory ending without killing him early) and a positive or at least non-horrifying outcome, but anyway the TL's purpose was to explore the interesting case of reversing WWII from an US-USSR anti-German/Japanese alliance to an US-Euro anti-Soviet/Japanese alliance without using the "easy" PoDs of preventing Nazism or killing Hitler in 1938-39, not to realize my geopolitical yearnings in an optimal way. Killing the British empire on the way was one part icing on the cake (Canada and Australia belong in the USA if a butterfly can give the necessary political push, if you want my opinion), one part necessary and plausible "narrative housecleaning".
 
Austrian culture is diverse

Because Germany, s everybody know, is a monolith in which the Hessians never mock anybody else. :rolleyes:

and Austria had existed centuries prior.

So had Mecklenburg. And?

Just because 2 nations share the same language does not mean they should unite.

No, but they probably should when the people of both favour it by a clear majority. You do know that the Austrians voted to join Germany in 1919, right? And how they were showering Hitler with flowers in 1938? And how Hitler was Austrian?

Austrians have developed their seperate nationhood entirely since 1945. Good luck to 'em, but that doesn't mean they and their fans can distort history.
 
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