Germany does not invade Belguim in 1914. What does Britain do?

Riain

Banned
Maybe people, who might have some ideas or intentions to create such a timeline are somewhat ... afraid and perhaps discouraged.

If already their starting post and POD would cause 51 pages of not only constructive discussion, not seldom fired up (not to say flamed)by seemingly biased, prejudiced statements ...
not very encouraging.

I got a bit of shit in the latter stages of my 'Dagger...' TL about the political and peace treaty aspects. People had little to no problem with me moving ships and army units around and changing the course of events, but when I suggested that German politics might be different and lead to a different peace treaty they lost their shit and I found myself defending the conclusions of my extensive reading.
 
The issue really won't be German merchant vessels, most of the overseas trade will be carried in neutral ships, and especially US ships which won't be too thrilled about british ships helping the MN stop them. As far as German warships go, yes the RN can report their position and even shadow them, but the reality of MN is they simply cannot chase down every individual raider, and if there is a squadron they run in to...
 
"The PM puts the foreign minister he wants in place, not vice versa."

This is a technical point concerning the British political system,but this simply isn't true. Its certainly not true of the present (2018) foreign minister.

Actually Grey and Asquith were long standing political allies. But to take a current example, Amber Rudd being a protege of Theresa May did not save her this year from being sacked. Haldane was a longstanding political ally of both Asquith and Grey and he turned out to be expendable. British political history is full of political careers and alliances crumbling overnight.

I'm genuinely curious about what Asquith does and have his letters to Venetia Stanley in my "too read" pile. However this was a pol whose supposed watchword was "wait and see". And IOTL he was reluctant to enter a coalition with the Tories in 1915 (see the Jenkins bio). So I'm not quite willing to accept claims that he will run into a coalition with the Tories in 1914 to go to war with Germany without a casus belli. I think he would want to see how things developed.
 
Some raised the issue of the British army at the time being a volunteer army and its a good point.

This cuts two ways. The government will think it can deploy the BEF as it stands in August 1914 fairly freely, because after all they all volunteered for this. But they are going to have a hard time recruiting replacements for the inevitable losses if the war is unpopular. A bloody war fought for balance of power reasons likely will be unpopular. Again look at the problems the Italians had with entering both world wars for transparently cynical reasons, and they had conscription.

This argues that declaring war on Germany and then sending the BEF to Lorraine to take part in the French offensives would be a disastrous move. If they are being smart about it, its either a declaration of war on Germany and a peripheral, instead of a continental, strategy, or a formal neutrality and taking all possible measures to support France short of war. One thing they could do, if the Belgians agreed and if Britain stayed neutral, would be to send the BEF to Antwerp. Then it would act as a tripwire and a guarantee that Germany could not invade Belgium without going to war against Britain. And by taking Belgium out of the picture, it all but guarantees that the Western front would be a stalemate. This serves the stated objectives of British foreign policy.
 

BooNZ

Banned
The excerpts I quoted are Grey's, from Grey's memories. I see no reason to suppose he was lying.
I don't have any issue with your source material, it is more your interpretation of it. You reference material has Grey being very dissatisfied with the prospect of a neutral Britain, but seeing nothing to gain by resigning, which coincidentally reconciles with my assessment of the facts. However, you then conclude Grey would metaphorically burn down the Liberal house. Sorry, but I cannot see any nexus between your reference material and your conclusion.

Grey was clear at the time and later he would go - the notion he'd have remained in a non-interventionist British cabinet is fictional. What Grey never explicitly stated was that he would bring down the Liberals after resigning, but in his memoires, IMO, he hints at it.
In the first instance, the absence of the Germans in Belgium means British neutrality is very much the mainstream position. What you are suggesting is you cannot envisage Grey existing in any British Cabinet not hell bent on war. From my reading, Grey's musings about resignation are based on principles of conscience/ honor. At the end of the day, he can stay or go - if he resigns, he loses the ability to influence future events, which is why I believe he would ultimately suck it up and stay.

I think it was possible (though not certain) that Grey could have caused the collapse of the Asquith government whether Asquith joined him in resigning, or not. For Asquith, if Grey resigned from a neutralist cabinet and he did not follow, it may have been political suicide.
In the first instance, how does Grey cause the collapse of the Asquith government (without Asquith) - Grey resigns and is gone. How exactly would accepting Grey's resignation be political suicide? To recap, even with the expectation of the Germans invading Belgium, only 2-3 British members of the Liberal Cabinet were enthusiastic on intervention.
Yes, I think Asquith's motive in both cases was to suggest neutrality was possible when it was not, was the personal embarrassment at the fact that Britain must come in to a Franco-German war and nothing Germany did or did not do could change the fact. This was a the heart, the problem with the Entente policy. It was sold as defensive in nature,, but given the danger of German hegemony, whether Germany or France started the war was immaterial to the fact Britain must join it. That, IMO, was the source of Asquith's embarrassment in the days before Germany invaded Belgium.
This is one of those theories you have, which is not supported by the available facts. By most accounts Asquith attempted to lead by consensus and his delegation of duties having what can only be described as loose oversight. I don't think there is any reputable historian who has suggested Britain was compelled to protect France (actually Russia) in almost all circumstances.​

Asquith had a number of priorities including, keeping the Liberal party together (and in power), navigating the Irish rule matter, maintaining the peace in Europe (if possible), defending Belgium territory against aggression, supporting his Foreign Secretary (and thereby France), while seeking not the alienate Germany. Prioritising the theoretical threat of German European hegemony over pressing current matters, while also discounting matters pertaining to the future Franco-Russian alliance and avoiding maintaining any written record of this thinking is rather impressive.

The embarrassment and anxiety that Asquith felt for the situation at the time afterwards has been matched by endless historians and students of history since, thousands and millions of which have decided that Germany's actions after 31 July had any material impact on the British entry into the war, when it did not. Myself, I understand Grey's policy perfectly and see why it had to be that way. The Germans could have avoided war with Britain, but not by 31 July. Just like how Grey had warned the Germans on 29 July.
Clearly those historians have been needlessly shackled to the facts - and are not free thinkers like yourself. I note you paint the British PM as the decider, but then choose to prioritise Grey's position when it suits you and then claim Asquith lied when it does not. Very liberated and imaginative thinking - very difficult to argue with!
 
Maybe people, who might have some ideas or intentions to create such a timeline are somewhat ... afraid and perhaps discouraged.

If already their starting post and POD would cause 51 pages of not only constructive discussion, not seldom fired up (not to say flamed)by seemingly biased, prejudiced statements ...
not very encouraging.

Well that is why I am here, to both learn and contribute, I float ideas, entertain them, critique the arguments I find not persuasive yet, gaining insight into both my own and other's thoughts. Not to be insulting but once past the POD it quickly becomes fiction, the speculation mounts no matter the firmness of research, so in a way every alternative is possible, the question is how plausible really and if you get me to suspend my disbelief and go down the path.
 
Some raised the issue of the British army at the time being a volunteer army and its a good point.

This cuts two ways. The government will think it can deploy the BEF as it stands in August 1914 fairly freely, because after all they all volunteered for this. But they are going to have a hard time recruiting replacements for the inevitable losses if the war is unpopular. A bloody war fought for balance of power reasons likely will be unpopular. Again look at the problems the Italians had with entering both world wars for transparently cynical reasons, and they had conscription.

This argues that declaring war on Germany and then sending the BEF to Lorraine to take part in the French offensives would be a disastrous move. If they are being smart about it, its either a declaration of war on Germany and a peripheral, instead of a continental, strategy, or a formal neutrality and taking all possible measures to support France short of war. One thing they could do, if the Belgians agreed and if Britain stayed neutral, would be to send the BEF to Antwerp. Then it would act as a tripwire and a guarantee that Germany could not invade Belgium without going to war against Britain. And by taking Belgium out of the picture, it all but guarantees that the Western front would be a stalemate. This serves the stated objectives of British foreign policy.

And I agree, even volunteers need a popular reason for war, especially as you make recruiting promises. As the British economy heats up to make things those jobs will begin to pay nicely, there is a reason nations go with a draft, volunteers dry up quick once the bullets fly and good jobs can now be found safe at home.

I still question what the BEF really does but I would agree, he Cabinet here is well served to preserve it and se other measures to alter the outcome.

As to putting it at Antwerp, I believe Belgium votes NO, they know that Germany will see it as step one on a path to invading Germany, a clear violation of strict neutrality and too likely to invite in German divisions to "safeguard" Belgian Luxembourg. The slippery slope is all banana peels. Hanging back to potentially mount an invasion draws off more Germans to defend the coasts. Floating ideas about other fronts dilutes German resources, it worked well in the next war when they actually avoided the foolish deployments. And Gallipoli could yet come in a limited Anglo-Ottoman war inside the war, the BEF can do more than add blood to French soil.
 
I got a bit of shit in the latter stages of my 'Dagger...' TL about the political and peace treaty aspects. People had little to no problem with me moving ships and army units around and changing the course of events, but when I suggested that German politics might be different and lead to a different peace treaty they lost their shit and I found myself defending the conclusions of my extensive reading.

I read it and liked it, I may not agree with the "story" but I do not doubt your research or question your choices, you told a good story, and for me that is what we do once we get past the POD. I learned some really interesting things. The post-war peace will never make anyone happy, that is the worst of politics, a tar baby that consumes victor and vanquished alike. Any time you disagree with me I take it to heart, I see it as critique not criticism. I may not change my mind but I have thought it through again.
 
Coming up with the postwar settlement is always the hardest part of a timeline like this. More variables to work with.

For me it likely boils down the nature of the story one wants to tell and the aspects of change one wants to address, some prefer the dystopic future or want a brighter version, some want to uncover the things hidden by OTL or let paths cut short continue to evolve, it is really just fiction, we try to make it real, the more plausible it is the harder I think it might be, it is not easy to jettison what you know or the bias that feels so familiar. And while I often disagree, I find all the differing stories quite interesting.
 
"And Gallipoli could yet come in a limited Anglo-Ottoman war inside the war, the BEF can do more than add blood to French soil."

Actually if the British really wanted to help France and Russia in a situation where the Germans did not invade Belgium, their best move from a purely strategic perspective would be to start a war with Turkey and remain neutral in the war involving Germany.

That way the could concentrate the British army and navy in seizing the Straights, which would be the best possible way to help Russia. If they remain at peace with Germany they can weaken the Grand Fleet somewhat to do this. And there would be nothing the Germans could do about it.

They lose the blockade against Germany and the diplomatic effect of pulling countries like Italy and Japan into the was (OK the USA, but that is some ways off), but being able to supply Russia through the Straights is worth it. In this scenario, the British army is not needed to counter the Germans in Flanders and they add pretty much nothing in Lorraine.
 
In this scenario, the British army is not needed to counter the Germans in Flanders and they add pretty much nothing in Lorraine.

That's not true! They've got like... a weeks worth of names for the casualty lists in "Operation Frontal Assault on the German Lines XXXVI"! Don't sell the BEF short!
 
That's not true! They've got like... a weeks worth of names for the casualty lists in "Operation Frontal Assault on the German Lines XXXVI"! Don't sell the BEF short!

Sad but true. The impulse for glory in a short war might see the BEF tossed like a log on the long fire of war.
 
"And Gallipoli could yet come in a limited Anglo-Ottoman war inside the war, the BEF can do more than add blood to French soil."

Actually if the British really wanted to help France and Russia in a situation where the Germans did not invade Belgium, their best move from a purely strategic perspective would be to start a war with Turkey and remain neutral in the war involving Germany.

That way the could concentrate the British army and navy in seizing the Straights, which would be the best possible way to help Russia. If they remain at peace with Germany they can weaken the Grand Fleet somewhat to do this. And there would be nothing the Germans could do about it.

They lose the blockade against Germany and the diplomatic effect of pulling countries like Italy and Japan into the was (OK the USA, but that is some ways off), but being able to supply Russia through the Straights is worth it. In this scenario, the British army is not needed to counter the Germans in Flanders and they add pretty much nothing in Lorraine.

You are getting crafty now playing for Britain. Did London insure the Ottomans against damages? We might like Nicky but this is going to play all hell with the British investment in OE. But I do leave a space for the Anglo-Ottoman War, Britain gets to wreck the Middle East after all. This is the sort of strange stuff that non-belligerent Britain might find itself sucked into.
 
"The PM puts the foreign minister he wants in place, not vice versa."

This is a technical point concerning the British political system,but this simply isn't true. Its certainly not true of the present (2018) foreign minister.

The PM decides which portfolio each member of his cabinet attends to. If Grey's ideas on foreign policy were not shared by Asquith, he'd have shuffled him into some other ministry long before the war.
 
Asquith - or someone - suggesting/proposing neutrality to germany ...

Some idea you aired on some occasions already.

Do you have any evidence, that such a somehow formalized proposal was in the ropes

No, there is no evidence I am aware of that the British cabinet considered or debated making a formal offer of neutrality to Germany based on the respect of Belgium or any other criteria except that of German neutrality in an Austro-Russian war. Yet you persist in the idea that the British were inclined to neutrality?
 
I'm wondering just how long it take before Joffre and the French lose patience with attacks on the German forts and start looking to Belgium, Britain be damned.
 
One thing they could do, if the Belgians agreed and if Britain stayed neutral, would be to send the BEF to Antwerp. Then it would act as a tripwire and a guarantee that Germany could not invade Belgium without going to war against Britain. And by taking Belgium out of the picture, it all but guarantees that the Western front would be a stalemate. This serves the stated objectives of British foreign policy.

Sure, right up until the point Russia surrenders and then 250 Austro-German divisions cut through the BEF's 15 or 20 divisions in Belgium like they were butter.
 
I'm wondering just how long it take before Joffre and the French lose patience with attacks on the German forts and start looking to Belgium, Britain be damned.

It does seem a tender place to touch, but with a Britain now back tracking and no BEF on the way, I think it is no longer "off the table." It is extremely logical to send the French 5th Army straight through Belgian Luxembourg to hit German occupied Luxembourg and get behind the Germany line of defense. Joffre saw it right from the beginning. Once the civilian leaders cannot bring the British to the dance, the French high command might get the nod. I am not inclined to believe the French are stupid, but I do believe they were no less cold blooded than the Germans. Belgium was always a fiction, the speed bump that survives so long as France or Germany can allow it. And once more we have Britain with a decision to make.
 
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