Germany Declaring War On The United States Doesn't Make Any Sense

[LestWeForget]

Of all the inexplicable things the Germans did before and during WW2, this still baffles.

Even factoring in the Nazi ideology and how it guided some of their absurd decisions, it still doesn't make any sense.

The United States and Germany had passive hostilities regarding the Battle of the Atlantic, but why declare war given the situation?

The Battle of Britain was over and they knew the UK wasn't going to be knocked out of the war anytime soon.

Operation Barbarossa was over and subduing the Soviet Union was not going to be a quick task, and even if it was by all accounts the Germans knew consolidating their gains would consume massive amounts of men and material.

This doesn't seem like a case where the Germans didn't know what they were dealing with, as may have been the case to an extent with the SU(Apparently Hitler said if he knew about their tank strength he would have never launched Barbarossa when he did). The SU was a closed and authoritarian power and maybe intelligence on them was limited.

Even Yamamoto knew about the industrial strength of the US, and yes the Japanese attacked in spite of that, but they weren't ALREADY engaged in a two front war.

The Japanese weren't going to reciprocate and attack the SU after Khalkin Gol, so why would the Germans feel compelled to jump in?

With the US and UK naval strength the Germans had no way of projecting power to the US mainland, they could only fight a defensive war.

Even if they felt that war with the US would come eventually, why not wait?

 

[Ryan lozano]

Because they overestimated the USA will be a worthy foe

 

[Bellacinos]

Hitler thought the US was weak because it was “internally focused” and because it had a high level of Jewish and African American people living there. His navy was also pushing hard to declare war so they could sink their merchant ships. One of hitler advisors showed Hitler a presentation on their industrial capability and Hitler laughed him out of the room and after declaring war his advisor shot himself.

Source

 

[jmc247]

Even if they felt that war with the US would come eventually, why not wait?

1. Germans believed America would be preparing for a two front war militarily and after they kicked the ass of the Japanese Navy they would declare war on them. By declaring war early they would force the American Navy to act in the Atlantic and Pacific.

2. They wanted to get at the LL ships because their entire war strategy revolved around kicking the Soviets out of the war within two years or they felt they would be screwed. Germans believed LL would keep the Soviets in the war.

LL was the bigger factor according to a German of that era I talked to. They believed LL to Britain and moreso the Soviets needed to be stopped and said they vastly overestimated the capability of their navy at the time. They believed they needed a DOW to go after those LL ships aggressively.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The US was going to join the war fairly shortly, assuming they didn't just declare war on Germany as Japan's ally, or in support of their ally Britain, a big enough incident in the Atlantic would have occurred soon enough, at most they may have bought months

Furthermore they wanted to attack the Lend Lease pipeline to weaken Britain/USSR. With the US nuetral they could only do it in the Eastern Atlantic without dragging the US into the war given the neutrality zone the US enforced, which made the U-Boats less effective, and they had essentially lost the Battle of the Atlantic then. By declaring war on the US the U-Boats were able to hunt off the East and Gulf Coasts of the US and achieve much greater results than they had been achieving before, resulting in the "Second Happy Time" and the Battle of the Atlantic becoming a real contest for most of '42

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Of all the inexplicable things the Germans did before and during WW2, this still baffles.

Even factoring in the Nazi ideology and how it guided some of their absurd decisions, it still doesn't make any sense.

The United States and Germany had passive hostilities regarding the Battle of the Atlantic, but why declare war given the situation?

The Battle of Britain was over and they knew the UK wasn't going to be knocked out of the war anytime soon.

Operation Barbarossa was over and subduing the Soviet Union was not going to be a quick task, and even if it was by all accounts the Germans knew consolidating their gains would consume massive amounts of men and material.

This doesn't seem like a case where the Germans didn't know what they were dealing with, as may have been the case to an extent with the SU(Apparently Hitler said if he knew about their tank strength he would have never launched Barbarossa when he did). The SU was a closed and authoritarian power and maybe intelligence on them was limited.

Even Yamamoto knew about the industrial strength of the US, and yes the Japanese attacked in spite of that, but they weren't ALREADY engaged in a two front war.

The Japanese weren't going to reciprocate and attack the SU after Khalkin Gol, so why would the Germans feel compelled to jump in?

With the US and UK naval strength the Germans had no way of projecting power to the US mainland, they could only fight a defensive war.

Even if they felt that war with the US would come eventually, why not wait?

Because at the time Pearl Harbour occurred, the US was at a low point militarily. Their Army was smaller than that of Romania, it was deficient in a lot of equipment, it had been stagnating for years and had been losing men owing to dearth of promotion opportunities. On paper, it was a good time to fight the US - the Germans didn't anticipate that they'd be able to build up as quickly as they did.

 

[Ficboy]

Since the United States had declared war on Japan (an Axis Power member), Germany had to do the same thing to them and there was no other way whatsoever.

Germany at this time had already suffered a double whammy from their losses at the Battle of Britain and Operation Barbarossa and they weren't in good position. Plus the United States possessed more resources than any of the Axis Powers combined.

 

[Bellacinos]

Since the United States had declared war on Japan (an Axis Power member), Germany had to do the same thing to them and there was no other way whatsoever.

Germany at this time had already suffered a double whammy from their losses at the Battle of Britain and Operation Barbarossa and they weren't in good position. Plus the United States possessed more resources than any of the Axis Powers combined.

Germanys deal with Japan was that it was only obligated to declare war on a country if it attacks Japan but not if Japan is the aggressor.

 

[David T]

Of all the inexplicable things the Germans did before and during WW2, this still baffles.

Hitler declared war on the US in part because he anticipated--almost certainly correctly--that otherwise the US would declare war on him. As Ribbentrop put it, "A great power does not permit any power to make war on it. It declares war itself.." https://books.google.com/books?id=gTLqsBYgvKQC&pg=PA123

Consider FDR's radio address to the nation on December 9:

***

The course that Japan has followed for the past 10 years in Asia has paralleled the course of Hitler and Mussolini in Europe and Africa. Today, it has become far more than a parallel. It is collaboration so well calculated that all the continents of the world, and all the oceans, are now considered by the Axis strategists as one gigantic battlefield.

In 1931, Japan invaded Manchukuo without warning.

In 1935, Italy invaded Ethiopia without warning.

In 1938, Hitler occupied Austria without warning.

In 1939, Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia without warning.

Later in 1939, Hitler invaded Poland without warning.

In 1940, Hitler invaded Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, and Luxembourg without warning.

In 1940, Italy attacked France and later Greece without warning.

In 1941, the Axis Powers attacked Jugoslavia and Greece and they dominated the Balkans without warning.

In 1941, Hitler invaded Russia without warning.

And now Japan has attacked Malaya and Thailand and the United States without warning.

It is all of one pattern...

Your Government knows that for weeks Germany has been telling Japan that if Japan did not attack the United States, Japan would not share in dividing the spoils with Germany when peace came. She was promised by Germany that if she came in she would receive the complete and perpetual control of the whole of the Pacific area and that means not only the Far East, not only all of the islands in the Pacific, but also a stranglehold on the west coast of North, Central, and South America.

We also know that Germany and Japan are conducting their military and naval operations in accordance with a joint plan. That plan considers all peoples and nations which are not helping the Axis Powers as common enemies of each and every one of the Axis Powers.

That is their simple and obvious grand strategy. That is why the American people must realize that it can be matched only with similar grand strategy. We must realize, for example, that Japanese successes against the United States in the Pacific are helpful to German operations in Libya; that any German success against the Caucasus is inevitably an assistance to Japan in her operations against the Dutch East Indies; that a German attack against Algiers or Morocco opens the way to a German attack against South America.

On the other side of the picture we must learn to know that guerrilla warfare against the Germans in Serbia helps us; that a successful Russian offensive against the Germans helps us; and that British successes on land or sea in any part of the world strengthen our hands.

Remember always that Germany and Italy, regardless of any formal declaration of war, consider themselves at war with the United States at this moment just as much as they consider themselves at war with Britain and Russia. And Germany puts all the other republics of the Americas into the category of enemies. The people of the hemisphere can be honored by that.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/dec06.asp

***

This sounds like a rehearsal for a proposal to declare war on Germany--and it is possible that if FDR did not yet ask for a declaration at that time, it may have been because he was convinced from intelligence sources and decrypts that Germany would soon declare war on the US.

How hard a time would FDR have had in getting a declaration of war through Congress? I think a Gallup poll figure from December 10, 1941 should settle that: "Should President Roosevelt have asked Congress to declare war on Germany, as well as on Japan?": yes — 90%, no — 7%." (see question 17 below)

 

[Ficboy]

Germanys deal with Japan was that it was only obligated to declare war on a country if it attacks Japan but not if Japan is the aggressor.

Yeah.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

If you can get a copy, the Germany and the Second World War series explains Hitler's decision in full in some really interesting detail.
Basically once the Japanese attacked the US and FDR got war powers it was probably only a matter of time until he was able to engineer entry into the war in Europe through an incident in the Atlantic or whatever, but only when the US was ready for it; Hitler felt that it would be stupid to wait to be attacked since FDR only got more aggressive throughout 1941 as it was and now the peace faction had evaporated in the US. So he opted to strike first and catch the US off guard, which the really bad losses to Uboats really demonstrate was a sound strategic choice.
From a Grand Strategy perspective, Hitler had backed himself into a corner by that point and was probably right that FDR would find a way into the war in Europe, so it does make more sense for Hitler to have DoWed the US rather than waiting. Arguably there is a chance that the public wouldn't want to fight in Europe and would only want to fight Japan, but if I were a betting man I don't think I'd risk my money on the US staying only involved in the Pacific.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Hitler thought the US was weak because it was “internally focused” and because it had a high level of Jewish and African American people living there. His navy was also pushing hard to declare war so they could sink their merchant ships. One of hitler advisors showed Hitler a presentation on their industrial capability and Hitler laughed him out of the room and after declaring war his advisor shot himself.

Source

That's complete BS. Check out Germany and the Second World War. Hitler was outright frightened of the US and blustered about it's weakness as a coping mechanism when in public. Privately he despaired about what to do and the DoW was largely a function of realizing he was out of options, so best to strike first.

 

[Garrison]

Of all the inexplicable things the Germans did before and during WW2, this still baffles.

Well 'Wages of Destruction' gives a more detailed explanation but I'll give some 'bullet points'.

Even factoring in the Nazi ideology and how it guided some of their absurd decisions, it still doesn't make any sense.

Well that's the thing, it does make sense ideologically and pragmatically if you take all the factors into account. The overview is that war with the USA was inevitable and when was there going to be a better moment than when they were distracted by Japan?

The United States and Germany had passive hostilities regarding the Battle of the Atlantic, but why declare war given the situation?

There was nothing passive about the hostilities in the Atlantic, the USN and the Kriegsmarine were engaged in a shooting war, that sooner or later was going to lead to war. There was also nothing passive about the supplies being sent to UK and USSR under lend lease. The leadership of the Kriegsmarine was advocating attacks in US coastal waters to try and cut that supply line, which of course meant a declaration of war.

The Battle of Britain was over and they knew the UK wasn't going to be knocked out of the war anytime soon.

But they did know that without L-L the ability of the British to create the massive fleet of Strategic Bombers that threatened the German heartlands would be delayed. Disrupting the Atlantic supply lines would buy Germany time to finish the USSR.

Operation Barbarossa was over and subduing the Soviet Union was not going to be a quick task, and even if it was by all accounts the Germans knew consolidating their gains would consume massive amounts of men and material.

Which would not be made any easier with the rapidly building supply of vehicles and materiel flowing from the USA to the USSR.

This doesn't seem like a case where the Germans didn't know what they were dealing with, as may have been the case to an extent with the SU(Apparently Hitler said if he knew about their tank strength he would have never launched Barbarossa when he did). The SU was a closed and authoritarian power and maybe intelligence on them was limited.

By the end of 1941 the military potential of the USA was still just that, potential. If they could be tied down and the supply lines across the Atlantic cut, even temporarily, then Germany could finish the USSR before focusing on dealing with the Anglo-American threat from the West.

Even Yamamoto knew about the industrial strength of the US, and yes the Japanese attacked in spite of that, but they weren't ALREADY engaged in a two front war.

And that US strength was rapidly gearing up, delay the declaration of war by six months and the build up of Lend-Lease makes victory against the British impossible instead of merely improbable. The analysis was that Pearl Harbour offered Germany a narrow window to cut the Atlantic supply line and knockout the USSR.

The Japanese weren't going to reciprocate and attack the SU after Khalkin Gol, so why would the Germans feel compelled to jump in?

Because pinning down the USA and forcing the British to divert resources, especially naval resources, to the Far East was exactly what Germany wanted Japan to do in late 1941. The idea of having the Japanese attack the USSR had been supplanted by the desire to pull Allied resources away into the Pacific.

With the US and UK naval strength the Germans had no way of projecting power to the US mainland, they could only fight a defensive war.

Well no, they took the war to the USA by deploying U-Boats to the East Coast. The 'Second Happy Time' caused carnage, but the Kriegsmarine just couldn't deploy enough U-Boats to achieve a decisive victory.

Even if they felt that war with the US would come eventually, why not wait?

Because there was no guarantee that the strategic situation would be better, the Japanese attack offered a chance to strike while the USA was diverted and while the British were being forced to fight on yet another front. You also can't ignore the ideological aspect. Hitler had concluded that Roosevelt was the 'chosen one' of 'World Jewry' and was determined to bring the USA into the war at their urging. If war was inevitable then the most Germany could do was control when it started and try to pick the optimal moment. Pearl Harbour seemed to offer that.

 

[Garrison]

That's complete BS. Check out Germany and the Second World War. Hitler was outright frightened of the US and blustered about it's weakness as a coping mechanism when in public. Privately he despaired about what to do and the DoW was largely a function of realizing he was out of options, so best to strike first.

This is also outlined in Wages of Destruction. The Germans were particularly concerned about the potential Anglo-American airfleet being turned loose on Germany.

 

[Vabasion]

Lend lease kept Britain and Soviets in the war from a “neutral” US. Not declaring war only means that LL keeps flowing uninterrupted. US was in no position to invade Europe with Soviet Union under German control. Which is what was hoped to be achieved and quicker due to ability to cut the LL lifeline.

 

[History Learner]

To quote Adam Tooze:

In fact, even before the unsuccessful outcome of the Battle of Britain, Hitler appears to have convinced himself that the military conquest of the Soviet Union in 1941 was the key to ultimate victory in the war as a whole. At the Berghof on 31 July 1940, in conference with the military leadership, Hitler emphasized that the Soviet Union would have to be knocked out of the war, if Britain was to be brought to heel and America's support neutralized.116 'Britain's hope lies in Russia and the United States. If Russia drops out of the picture, America, too, is lost for Britain, because elimination of Russia would tremendously increase Japan's power in the Far East.' Russia, according to Hitler, was the 'Far Eastern sword of Britain and the United States', a spearhead pointed at Japan.117​

​

Attacking and decisively defeating the Soviet Union in 1941 would rob Britain of its 'dagger on the mainland' and unleash Japan. If Britain did choose to continue the war and if Japanese aggression provoked American entry, complete control of the Eurasian landmass would at least secure for Germany the resources it needed for a true trans Atlantic confrontation. As Hitler put in on 9 January 1941, after the conquest of Lebensraum in the East, Germany would be ready for a 'war against continents'.118 Indeed, he seems to have rated the economic potential of such an empire greater than that of Britain and America combined. And it was this vision of a combined Japanese-German war on Britain and America to which he returned six months later, during the euphoric early weeks of July 1941, when he proposed to the Japanese ambassador an offensive alliance against the United States.119​

 

[Jiraiyathegallant]

The writer knew that having France get beat in six weeks and Germany advancing nearly a thousand miles into the Soviet Union cornered him into a wall, so he starting reaching to get himself out. Having Germany declare war on America and not adequately supplying winter coats was needed so Germany could lose.