Germany contracts USA companies to build blockade runners 1914

I want too, but I have lost my passion for writing. And when only partially motivated, the quality plummets.

Also, I looked at this topic many times, but I just don't think it is a war winner. IMO, Prince Henry and the 15 merchant subs would give you a war that looks almost identical to OTL. With a 100 million or so people in Germany and A-H and maximum capacity of maybe 100,000 tons of cargo a year, what difference does it make? We are talking about 2 pounds of goods per year per person. Maybe 20 pounds per soldier. Can you think of anything that weighs less than 20 pounds that makes that much difference to a soldier? That is like two 155mm artillery shells per year, per squad. And wasn't ammo more of an issue than say machine gun supply or artillery supplies?

The only way it makes an economic difference is, your factories now have replacement rubber belts for machines, so can produce ammo more efficiently, or factories need cutting tools that require heavy metals, or you really don't need that much more copper wire to produce significantly more aircraft. Or a handful of real rubber tired trucks could help logistics in some tricky situations. No way it can be about food or even fertilizer, so its 70% rubber, 10% nickel, 10% copper, 10% cotton.

With the confederates, the runners brought in military supplies, cannon, guns, powder (and luxury goods). The Germans don't need that since they have an industrial base, its about keeping your industry efficient.

But your right, at the end of the day, avoiding war with the USA, and just keeping Belgian relief going, probably blows away the imports from runners. Or just keeping Italy neutral somehow and keeping that blockade hole open.

The only other benefit is morale and propaganda and giving your fleet some worthwhile mission vs the counter productive OTL commerce war (which just made it easier for Britain to tighten the blockade).

The Germans managed to get a couple of blockade runners to east Africa OTL and disguised raiders got out like the Moewe. I am assuming at least a 50% success rate, 75% rate probable. The USA has lot of ports, you can't watch them all, various inlets on the North Carolina coasts or Texas, its thousands of miles on the USA end. The tricky point is the German end, but at least the last 100 miles you can have naval support and submarines further out then that.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
100,000 tons of extra nitrates per year would make a big difference on CP harvests - the nitrates production in Germany was never enough to go around.

It is a little under 50 pounds per acre, so 40 acres per ton. So it in theory could be enough for 4 million acres. It might well fix a lot of the food issue, if we assume 50% of imports is fertilizer.
 

Deleted member 94680

As to why we are having this discussion, we started with OTL distant blockade. Then we discussed the close blockade. Then a poster discussed blockading off Yorkshire which is the intermediate blockade, so we discussed it for a bit. IMO, the most likely think the UK does if there are a handful of fast blockade runners that sneak by the distant blockade each month is to keep doing the same and figure these ships will eventually be caught.

I suggested the Yorkshire blockade, to try and point out that the RN had many options.

As to the emboldened, I totally agree. This isn’t some “magic bullet” that wins the War for Germany, far from it.
 

Deleted member 94680

100,000 tons of extra nitrates per year would make a big difference on CP harvests - the nitrates production in Germany was never enough to go around.

Would the OTL German Government use nitrates sensibly like this or plough it into ammunition production?
 

Ian_W

Banned
Why not just build more cargo submarines earlier ? Its not like the British haven't done Blockade before ...
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Why not just build more cargo submarines earlier ? Its not like the British haven't done Blockade before ...

Cargo sub carries 750 ton. A fast surface ship of standard design can carry 3000 to 10000 tons of cargo at 17 knots.
 
Would the OTL German Government use nitrates sensibly like this or plough it into ammunition production?

Dunno. I doubt Germany could get 100,000 tons of nitrates per year in the US market, since it all comes from Chile and the Entente wants it too, and there was only something like 300,000 tons or so being produced. But, every ton of nitrate the Germans get is one ton less the Entente gets. Better in German shells or for German wheat (or on the bottom of the Atlantic), than in British shells.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Would the OTL German Government use nitrates sensibly like this or plough it into ammunition production?

Ammo fills like the correct answer. I am beginning to wonder how much food could be grown if we cut ammo consumption down by 35% at Verdun. Or how much food could A-H grow if it used chemical weapons. i.e. every 3rd explosive shell used in OTL is replace with mustard gas and the nitrogen is used as fertilizer.
 
Ammo fills like the correct answer. I am beginning to wonder how much food could be grown if we cut ammo consumption down by 35% at Verdun. Or how much food could A-H grow if it used chemical weapons. i.e. every 3rd explosive shell used in OTL is replace with mustard gas and the nitrogen is used as fertilizer.

I think the ratio is about 10:1. That is 10 tons extra harvest for 1 ton of nitrate, but not exceeding the 1913 harvest totals no matter how much nitrate. From memory (don't quote me here), I think total German nitrate production, acquisitions, all sources, was something like 400,000 tons, of which more than 50,000 tons was actually imported by sea via the neutrals 1916 and before. So, if the HSF can get 50,000 tons imported per year, it's big. In fact, I'd suggest that losing warship or merchant ship tonnage at a rate of 3x import of crucial materials was worth it. (i.e., if a Kaiser Class dreadnought could be cashed into 8,000 tons of nitrates, rubber, or other vital materials, it would be a good deal for Germany to do that).
 

Ian_W

Banned
Cargo sub carries 750 ton. A fast surface ship of standard design can carry 3000 to 10000 tons of cargo at 17 knots.

Standard design, sure. But if you're building it low profile and so on, then it's going to - maybe - be 3000 tons.

Given the British can base out of the Carrbibean and Halifax, and has access to American harbours as well, Im pretty sure they can simply tail any unarmed blockade runner out of American harbours with an unarmed ship of their own, and then vector a light cruiser to it.

On the other hand, I really can't see what you can do about a submersible that leaves at night and submerges in US waters. If you want to be really nice to the Americans, you can even invite the Entente to inspect the cargo as it's loaded, which is going to be dual use items like fertiliser, special materials for steel and rubber.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Standard design, sure. But if you're building it low profile and so on, then it's going to - maybe - be 3000 tons.

Given the British can base out of the Carrbibean and Halifax, and has access to American harbours as well, Im pretty sure they can simply tail any unarmed blockade runner out of American harbours with an unarmed ship of their own, and then vector a light cruiser to it.

On the other hand, I really can't see what you can do about a submersible that leaves at night and submerges in US waters. If you want to be really nice to the Americans, you can even invite the Entente to inspect the cargo as it's loaded, which is going to be dual use items like fertiliser, special materials for steel and rubber.

I get the advantage of the speed. What is the advantage of the low profile?

Sure, the merchant subs work. I used them in my ATL. It looks like it takes under a year to build them, so we could have them showing up by mid 1915. Say 1 a month for the first 6 months, then two a month for the next 6 months, then 4 a month for the rest of the war.
 
When the war started, Germany expected Britain to remain neutral. Also, they expected to win within a few months.

So they didn't think there would be a blockade, nor that the war would last long enough for the blockade to be effective. Thus it is highly unlikely that Germany would start such a program before 1915.

Furthermore, running the British blockade would be much trickier than than running the Union blockade was. The CSA had a broad coast fronting on the open Atlantic, with Nassau only few hundred km away. Germany's ports are inside the North Sea, hundreds of km from "blue water", and thousands of km from the nearest safe neutral ports.
 

Ian_W

Banned
I get the advantage of the speed. What is the advantage of the low profile?

Sure, the merchant subs work. I used them in my ATL. It looks like it takes under a year to build them, so we could have them showing up by mid 1915. Say 1 a month for the first 6 months, then two a month for the next 6 months, then 4 a month for the rest of the war.

You cant catch what you don't see.

And if you're going for cargo submarines, build them pre-war.
 
Someone looks at a map and realises Distant Blockade breaks Risk Theory.
In OTL Naval Exercises May 1914 Tirpitz asked the question to his Admirals. "What if they don't come?" Nobody had an answer and nobody did anything OTL. But if he brought that up (and risked the obvious questioning of his naval strategy), he must have been thinking about it for a while. So I don't think it implausible for people to think about a strategy in case this happens, its what militaries should do. Perhaps in 1913 or early 1914 the question could be raised and people could do something about it.

Probably as BlondieBC pointed out the economic part of it would involve stockpiling raw materials. The Blockade running part is just a way to either force the British into action close to the German coasts or to supply colonies or raiders (via the construction of fast merchants).
 

Deleted member 94680

In OTL Naval Exercises May 1914 Tirpitz asked the question to his Admirals. "What if they don't come?" Nobody had an answer and nobody did anything OTL.

Faced with this option a German Admiral commented, "If the British do that, the role of our navy will be a sad one," correctly predicting the role the surface fleet would have during the First World War.
 

Ian_W

Banned
In OTL Naval Exercises May 1914 Tirpitz asked the question to his Admirals. "What if they don't come?" Nobody had an answer and nobody did anything OTL. But if he brought that up (and risked the obvious questioning of his naval strategy), he must have been thinking about it for a while. So I don't think it implausible for people to think about a strategy in case this happens, its what militaries should do. Perhaps in 1913 or early 1914 the question could be raised and people could do something about it.

Probably as BlondieBC pointed out the economic part of it would involve stockpiling raw materials. The Blockade running part is just a way to either force the British into action close to the German coasts or to supply colonies or raiders (via the construction of fast merchants).

Hmmm.

If the KM ask that question in, say, 1908, then maybe build the Magdeburg class as unarmed 'fast transports', with the thinking being that they can evade any Distant Blockade, and therefore give the British a choice between Close Blockade and a leaky Blockade ?
 
I'd suggest that losing warship or merchant ship tonnage at a rate of 3x import of crucial materials was worth it. (i.e., if a Kaiser Class dreadnought could be cashed into 8,000 tons of nitrates, rubber, or other vital materials, it would be a good deal for Germany to do that).

The Blucher, the old Gazelle cruisers etc. (and even Lutzow) were all lost without really achieving anything, instead of bombarding some little English coastal town, a loaded merchant ship was brought in and one of these ships were lost, I agree that would probably be a fair exchange. No one is missing the old cruisers in 5 years. The Germans can hold back their newest and latest warships and send the older ones out to escort.

With the merchant ships, the British are releasing crews of USA nationals, so no German sailors are lost, its really just financial.

I wonder if you just had the Uboats do escort duty if you could stick some in the Greenland - Scotland Gap, it would probably take at least a UB III?
 
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