Germany cancels jet development, focuses on piston engines?

Deleted member 1487

My understanding of the problem of jet engines was the lack of necessary rare metals that did not deform under intense heat like that generated by a jet engine. It was that need that set back designs somewhat, as they tried to design them in a way so as to not need these metals as much. The results of course were marginal at best.
 
My understanding of the problem of jet engines was the lack of necessary rare metals that did not deform under intense heat like that generated by a jet engine. It was that need that set back designs somewhat, as they tried to design them in a way so as to not need these metals as much. The results of course were marginal at best.

That was an element of the problem, the lack of strength in the engine blades lead to creep where they would become unservicable after 25 hours of flight and require replacement

but the 262 had a lot more problems than that

1. The landing gear was atrocious, (there where teething problems building an undercarriage for a plane that was going 125mph at touchdown) the tires would burst and collapse the undercarriage, usually wrecking the aircraft
2. The engines where extremely slow to build up thrust, prone to surging, stalling, catching fire, and indeed out and out failure... and this was not an easy plane to fly on one engine even if you had experience in asymetric flight from the JU-88 or the ME-110
3. The frame wasn't particularly well built enough to handle very high true air speeds... so when the fellow would go too fast in a dive (if he could break out of it without crashing into the ground) the frame had a strong tendancy to get over stressed, rendering the aircraft unservicable
4. The armament despite its weight, was short ranged (ie the tail gunner in a B-17 could shoot and hit from a longer distance than the 30mm cannons on the ME-262)
5. It wasn't manueverable at all
6. It needed long hard metal runways, so its operating bases where easy to spot and destroy from the air
I could throw out a few more, but you get the idea, it was generally a failed design, but a revolutionary proving ground
 
German late war piston engine fighters like the ME-109 series K and the FW-190 D where already very competitive anyway. The whole reason jets where attractive to Germany was that they offered a (potential) MASSIVE increase in performance which they thought could be a multiplier to make up for their hyper numerical inferiority

this pod doesn't change much... maybe some elements of wing design get pushed back a few years but the time line would merge with otl by 1955 more or less

Are you sure about this?

Instead of investing massive resources in jet aircraft development, the Germans build a fighter that's just as good as/better than the Do 335 but in service by D-Day. Not as fast as an Me 262 but with better reliability, maneuverability, fuel efficiency, and operability. And it's a lot cheaper, too. Turbojet development could still continue at a moderate pace, enough perhaps for German jets to enter service around early 1945. I think it would change the air war in Europe quite a bit, maybe enough to forestall Germany's defeat by a few days or a week and accelerate early jet development in the West.

The 109K had a max speed of 450mph, the 190D, 426mph. The Ta-152 could get to 470mph, but that was only with GM-1 boost which was temporary and wore down the engine. However this design might reach 480-490mph and would have a longer range and better armament.

By using a DB 604C instead of two DB 603s (as in the Do 335) this aircraft would instantly lose 800kg but with the same power. And it would be very easy to fit a battery of cannon, and possibly radar, to its nose.
 
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My records show that the DB604 was cancelled September 1942. It possibly was deemed flawed.

High performance numbers for some German fighters can be deceiving. Their highest priority mission was to shoot down American bombers. To do this required modifications in armor and armament which reduced performance dramatically.
 
Are you sure about this?

Instead of investing massive resources in jet aircraft development, the Germans build a fighter that's just as good as/better than the Do 335 but in service by D-Day. Not as fast as an Me 262 but with better reliability, maneuverability, fuel efficiency, and operability. And it's a lot cheaper, too. Turbojet development could still continue at a moderate pace, enough perhaps for German jets to enter service around early 1945. I think it would change the air war in Europe quite a bit, maybe enough to forestall Germany's defeat by a few days or a week and accelerate early jet development in the West.

The 109K had a max speed of 450mph, the 190D, 426mph. The Ta-152 could get to 470mph, but that was only with GM-1 boost which was temporary and wore down the engine. However this design might reach 480-490mph and would have a longer range and better armament.

By using a DB 604C instead of two DB 603s (as in the Do 335) this aircraft would instantly lose 800kg but with the same power. And it would be very easy to fit a battery of cannon, and possibly radar, to its nose.

Considering the top speed of the P-51 mustang D was about 430mph and the Giffen spitfire XIV was about 445... the FW-190D and ME-109K (configured as fighters/ not weighted down with 30mm cannons as bomber destroyers) where plenty competitive with these designs

The problem was the LW pilot quality went to shit because their replacement and training system sucked AND they flew their aces non stop until they got tired, made mistakes and got shot down instead of rotating them home to be instructors

Jets offered the opportunity to have the aircraft itself be a massive force multiplier... even the DO-335 was not going to be SO superior to the P-51 and other allied fighters that it would make much of a difference compared to an ME-109K
 

CalBear

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Faster is a relative thing. 15 MPH of an advantage is nice, but it also something of a fallacy.

You take a totally clean airframe (probably waxed to within an inch of its life) with minimal loading (partial fuel load, probably no ammo in guns, etc.) pump the supercharger to the max and go for a couple of high speed runs. In the process, you destroy the engine, but no big deal, because the entire point is to show what you can achieve (and get that contract bonus!!!).

In real life you get a bird that has a couple hundered miles since last tear down, a couple spark plugs that a a bit fouled, a fuel line that isn't pristine, and bit of gunk in the oil that is fully loaded, possibly even past fully loaded, and is being flown by a pilot who has been on the stick for 4-5 hours or is on his third sortie of the day. That airframe will not be anywhere close to the max speed of the design. Even if it is, and the other guys have three fighters vs. the one slightly faster bird, guess who goes home?

The advantage of the jets were that they were 100+ mph faster than the fighters they were matched up against and, more critically, were so fast that the gunners on the bombers had a hard time getting a bead on them using the turrets (IIRC this was a particular issue with the ball turrets).

Overall the difference is negligible.
 
Good point, apparently Dowding tested a number of Hurricanes during the Bob and found their average speed to be 305mph, well below the supposed 330mph or so of the plane.
 
My records show that the DB604 was cancelled September 1942. It possibly was deemed flawed.

High performance numbers for some German fighters can be deceiving. Their highest priority mission was to shoot down American bombers. To do this required modifications in armor and armament which reduced performance dramatically.

I have found very little information on the DB 604 but apparently it was a very promising design, according to Bill Gunston. Trial runs on Ju 52s had taken place. Also, production had already started when it was cancelled on September 4, 1942.

Faster is a relative thing. 15 MPH of an advantage is nice, but it also something of a fallacy.

You take a totally clean airframe (probably waxed to within an inch of its life) with minimal loading (partial fuel load, probably no ammo in guns, etc.) pump the supercharger to the max and go for a couple of high speed runs. In the process, you destroy the engine, but no big deal, because the entire point is to show what you can achieve (and get that contract bonus!!!).

In real life you get a bird that has a couple hundered miles since last tear down, a couple spark plugs that a a bit fouled, a fuel line that isn't pristine, and bit of gunk in the oil that is fully loaded, possibly even past fully loaded, and is being flown by a pilot who has been on the stick for 4-5 hours or is on his third sortie of the day. That airframe will not be anywhere close to the max speed of the design. Even if it is, and the other guys have three fighters vs. the one slightly faster bird, guess who goes home?

The advantage of the jets were that they were 100+ mph faster than the fighters they were matched up against and, more critically, were so fast that the gunners on the bombers had a hard time getting a bead on them using the turrets (IIRC this was a particular issue with the ball turrets).

Overall the difference is negligible.

OK, I see your point.
 
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