Germany builds the VK3001(H)

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demonstrations

The facts are all in the books, just read the one posted bellow if you want. If you want a ISO2000 quality crtification for other people statements, try the EU quality certifcation agency. They'll send the appropriate forms.
If you can see a recognisable Tiger I program emerging in 1937, you're using very interpretative magnifying glasses. There were two Tiger projects, Porsche's VK4501(P), and when that proved to be heading into trouble, Henschel's VK4501(H). Henschel got the order in May41, used it's VK3601(H) design as a base, and had the Tiger in production in July 42. The thing was basically right, and had only minor changes duringit's production run. from 1942 Henschel was basically the Tiger factory. (Calling this major companies workshops is amusing). Of course a German option for large quantities of 30/35t tanks in 42 (a decision that would have to be made in 41) woud mean no Tigers, Panthers, Ferdinands, etc.
The german army would go to war with a totally different quantity vs quality balance.
The Tiger I was designed as a dedicated tank killer with superior firepower and protection and decent crosscountry handling at the cost of dificult long range mobility, horrible fuel cunsuption and high unit cost. The Tiger II went even further to become the ultimate quality over quantity weapon. (until the F22, probably).

 

[AdA]

All is fine when you have the time

But I'm not sure you gain much by replacing the Ausf F with a new design. Keep the Ausf F since it is in production and produce teh Panther in place of the Pz III once that change is fully complete convert the Pz IV lines to the Panther II or a new design that resolves some of the Panthers problems (non maintainable final drive, interleaved suspension, tempramental engine)[/QUOTE]

Serious comments and all basically sound. I think I need to make one point clear here. I believe that the Germans need to finish the war as fast as possible. 1943 was too late. When they made the option to go for superior designs (Tiger/Panther) they were aware that they would have to wait until the summer of 43 to exploit them. The problems with the panther meant that it was only in 44 that the tank could operate reliably and in numbers, and by then it was too late. So the OTL options are loosing option. The Panther would have been a fine base for a long term peacetime program. (A german centurion) Pressing realities in Russia should have dictated a need for "getting there fastest with the mostest tanks". There was only one companny with a new design ready for production in 41, and that was Henschel with their 30t design. The good thing about it was that it proved to be easily adaptable to incrising size and weight. It had been design to use a 105mm/28 caliber gun, so it could use heavier firepower. Was it better than the PzIV. Probably. The PzIV was a 24t design pushed to limit to take the L48gun (and only in 43, the L43 being used all along 42). So my calender would be:
1. Henschel build the VK3001. It is tested in action replaces the PzIV, using a L48 gun for most version with a 105L28 for support versions.
2. while the VK3001 is upgrade to take the 75L70 (effectivelly becomming the VK3601, and introduced to other factories fully replacing all PzIV production, the VK3002(DB) is introduced, first being produced by DB, then progressivly replacing the PzIII.
Note: The same minds that influenced those choices (I'm thinking mostly of Guderian) must prevail to have a 600HP diesel engine a priority. DB could have done it, their work with marine diesels and all sorts of engines should convince anyine that this were among the top engine people, up there with Rolls Royce)
Just building more IV limits the options in 43, the perfect solution (lots of reliable Panthers in early 43, is impossible)
So lets keep it (alternatively) real.

 

[Michele]

The facts are all in the books,

Yes, they are. Where do you think I found mine? But I see we'll get no provable statements from you.

If you can see a recognisable Tiger I program emerging in 1937,

Don't move the goalposts, will you. You claimed "concept", not "program". They are different things.

Henschel got the order in May41, used it's VK3601(H) design as a base, and had the Tiger in production in July 42.

August. Check your books.

The thing was basically right, and had only minor changes duringit's production run.

As in the interleaved wheels getting blocked by frozen mud? The extremely high breakdwon rates? What about the complete turret redesign in early 1943? Have you noticed that another knowledgeable poster also mentions teething problems?

from 1942 Henschel was basically the Tiger factory. (Calling this major companies workshops is amusing).

You get amused with little. English is not my mother tongue. I called workshops the two main buildings where the Tigers were built - they were sub-units, individually roofed, of the factory. If you have a better word, you are welcome to provide it. I'm always keen to learn.

That said, the issue remains. Can you show that in those two buildings, Henschel had been producing Pz IIIs or any other AFV until July 1942? If you can't, then this talk about Tigers, in the context of switching from Pz IIIs chassis production to anything else, is as relevant as talking about what you had for breakfast this morning.

Hint: that factory was nearly doubled in size between 1940 and 1941.

 

[bsmart111]

The facts are all in the books, just read the one posted bellow if you want.

Uhh - That book along with Chamberlain & Ellis's British and American Tanks are sitting right now beside the keyboard of my home computer (I figure it isn't a good career move to keep them next to my machine at work ) They are usually on the bookshelf behind my chair where I can spin, lean, reach to get them. You don't want me to get on my 'people don't know how to research anymore' rant but in the days before google having a good library of referance material was vital. Of course back in the day it was hard to contact anyone who was willing to discuss such esotaric topics as we do here

 

[AdA]

Tigers, rooftops and other tales of web madness

Yes, they are. Where do you think I found mine? But I see we'll get no provable statements from you.
In my world, provable means the court sentence is no longer susceptible to appell. Am I being sued?


Don't move the goalposts, will you. You claimed "concept", not "program". They are different things.
So you can find a german SOR for a tank with a gun capable of penetrating a T34 of armour at 1500mm and armour capable os resisting close range hits from said T34 gun at close range in 1937? Or are you thinking of the infantry support heavy tank projects with low velocity guns?



August. Check your books.

Production means being built, not being unloaded from a train near Leniningrad.

As in the interleaved wheels getting blocked by frozen mud? The extremely high breakdwon rates? What about the complete turret redesign in early 1943? Have you noticed that another knowledgeable poster also mentions teething problems?

The germans persisted with the wheels until the end. The Breakdown rates are no worst than the Pershing, and much better than the crusader, unless you count running out of fuel as a breakdown. I am sure the first composite bows had teething problems. By turret redesign you mean hadding the bustle? Was there a complete redesign when the brits moved the radios on their US tanks?


You get amused with little. English is not my mother tongue. I called workshops the two main buildings where the Tigers were built - they were sub-units, individually roofed, of the factory. If you have a better word, you are welcome to provide it. I'm always keen to learn.

Workshop is usally a term for a small unit. English is not my mother tongue either. Note my spelling. But some word usage distorts meaning.

That said, the issue remains. Can you show that in those two buildings, Henschel had been producing Pz IIIs or any other AFV until July 1942? If you can't, then this talk about Tigers, in the context of switching from Pz IIIs chassis production to anything else, is as relevant as talking about what you had for breakfast this morning.
What's with the PzIII? Henschel was one of seven companies producing PzIII and the only company with a viable PzIV replacement in March 41. Henschel droped out of the PzIII program to concentrate on Tiger production. This is a More mediums earlier vs heavies later thread (and yes, at 45 tons in 43 I regard the Panther as a heavy option, and as such as a pre MBT not as Medium). Not a PzIII chassis fan club. There are certanly sites for people who collect chassis numbers....

 

[AdA]

Agreed on all counts

Uhh - That book along with Chamberlain & Ellis's British and American Tanks are sitting right now beside the keyboard of my home computer (I figure it isn't a good career move to keep them next to my machine at work ) They are usually on the bookshelf behind my chair where I can spin, lean, reach to get them. You don't want me to get on my 'people don't know how to research anymore' rant but in the days before google having a good library of referance material was vital. Of course back in the day it was hard to contact anyone who was willing to discuss such esotaric topics as we do here

How about this one?

 

[historyfool]

Seems like a horrible idea to me. It has all the drawbacks of the idea to copy the T34, but with an inferior concept. As explained now and again it would have been disastrous for the Germans to go for a cheap tank of "sufficient" quality. There are two simple reasons, neither true for Americans, who went that way with the Sherman, and Russians, who partly did it as well. The manpower issue is obvious to anyone. But as important is that the German industry was not really geared for that. I am tired to explain it again and again so I´ll simply copy my post from one of these Sherman threads:

Germany after the economic crisis of the 1870s took industrially a rather different way from most other nations. Since a contributing factor for its problems was low quality they developed away from true mass-production. Instead German had a cluster-based industry, that means the majority of coorporations are middle or small-sized and produce a limited amount of high-quality goods with highly-skilled workers for a slightly higher price. Despite DIN-Norms the German industry was therefore not really up to mass-producing perfectly standardised equipment, a problem aggreviated by the necessary use of factories in occupied nations, namely Czech ones. The nazis tried to change to mass-production during the war, which was partially sucessful, not least with the help of slave labour, but led to a grave reduction of quality control. Logically West Germany turned again to the old ways, something which later helped to preserve the German industry better compared to other industrial countries.

A lot of people in German high command were well aware of that. And they tried the only logical alternative: Aim for a tank of higher quality capable to counter the numeral imbalance. Did not work for several reasons, but basically it was the only strategy which might have worked. Germany CAN´T reach the numbers of tanks USA and USSR built and manned under any circumstances. It HAS to try getting superior tanks (and planes and rifles and so on).

EDIT: Feel so stupid now. I followed a link in another discussion and did not realize that this thread was inactive. Sorry for necromancing it.

 

[phx1138]

sligthly larger, and much easier to upgrade, VK3001 (H) project.

Cool image.

Just one thing: why do they adopt the design with those stupid interleaved roadwheels? What was wrong with the Pz4-style bogies?

 

[AdA]

Cool image.

Just one thing: why do they adopt the design with those stupid interleaved roadwheels? What was wrong with the Pz4-style bogies?

The interleaved arrangment allowed for a easier fit for the torsion bars inside the hull and gave a superior ride.

 

[phx1138]

The interleaved arrangment allowed for a easier fit for the torsion bars inside the hull and gave a superior ride.

Huh. IDK that. I'd have sacrificed it for the lessened maintenance headaches, myself.

 

[AdA]

Huh. IDK that. I'd have sacrificed it for the lessened maintenance headaches, myself.

DB was going to ditch it in the production version of the VK30.02 (DB) and more or less copy the T34.

 

[phx1138]

DB was going to ditch it in the production version of the VK30.02 (DB) and more or less copy the T34.

I recall the rejected version also had a rear drive sprocket, which I also think was a good idea.

 

[AdA]

Big Brother

here's a model of the 36.01 with the tappered bore 75/55mm geerlich gun. In this form, it wuould have been a German Firefly, a pure tank killer.

 

[cortz#9]

here's a model of the 36.01 with the tappered bore 75/55mm geerlich gun. In this form, it wuould have been a German Firefly, a pure tank killer.

That's a very cool model.looks like a cross between a Pz.IV and a Tiger. Was this an actual war time design? Mind if I post this pic in Claymore's Alternative history armoured fighting vehicle thread?

 

[AdA]

That's a very cool model.looks like a cross between a Pz.IV and a Tiger. Was this an actual war time design? Mind if I post this pic in Claymore's Alternative history armoured fighting vehicle thread?

Please do. Here's the link to the original modeling site, so the builder gets credit. It was an actual design. When more protection and the 88L56 were speciefied, it rapidly evolved, with a bigger engine, into the VK45.01(H) that became the Tiger. it's therefore a transitional model btw the PzIV replacement VK30.01 and the Tiger
http://www.2iemeguerre.com/blindes/vk3601.htm

 

[chris N]

Truly an interesting idea.

 

[AdA]

Revised German tank production

Germany had planned for war in 1942. It's production plan was centred on instruction models, progressively complemented by combat models. A premature war in 1939 left Germany with a large park of what were really instruction tanks (PzI and II) and small numbers of proper tanks, the Pz III and IV, along with Czech tanks.
In OTL they assumed a short war and concentrated on minor improvements of the III and IV series. If they had predicted the real needs of a two year war with the USSR (one year to cripple, another to finish the Soviets) they could have come up with an altmative plan starting in 1940, incorporating the lessons of France and Poland.
1. Legacy types: keep building the PzIII and IV.
2. Lightweight family. The virtues of the Pz38 chassis have now been demonstrated. Build it as a APC (see the post war Swedish conversions for an idea, Recce, AT, AA, Mortar carrier, etc. this will replace most Half Tracks in combat roles.
2. Middleweight family. Based on the VK30.01. Introduced in 1941 and progressivly replacing the legacy designs, starting with the IV. Initial version with a 75L48 complemented by a CS version with the 105L28. Later built in Jagdpanzer version with the 88L56.
3. Need to counter the T34 forces revised plan. Factories producing the IV complete the change to the VK30.01 while factories producing the III convert, late, to the VK30.02(DB)
4. VK45.02 requirement leads to an earlier form of King Tiger. VK30.01 progressively swiched to Jagd variant while the Tiger (OTL TIger II) is introduced.
5. 1944 production: Pz38 based AFV (multiple roles) VK30.02(DB) and Tiger II. VK30.01 chassis used for Jagd, StuH SPH and SPAA roles.

 

[cortz#9]

Have you thought or are you thinking of doing a TL AdA? You've shown me some Interesting AFVs from Hungary & Romania I wasn't familiar with before. If you put them together with these German designs it would make a great TL. If you haven't thought about it, you should.

 

[AdA]

Have you thought or are you thinking of doing a TL AdA? You've shown me some Interesting AFVs from Hungary & Romania I wasn't familiar with before. If you put them together with these German designs it would make a great TL. If you haven't thought about it, you should.

Thanks. I really enjoy using this site, but currently my job and family obligations keep me from giving more than a few minutes at a time to AH. Writing a good TL requires time to do research and polish the writing, something I don't have the time to do. So I just drop a few ideas from time to time, and post on other people threads.
I have to confess I sometimes rush my posts (or post while engaged in one of those neverending nonproductive work conference calls) and make mistakes I shouldn't make. Usually somebody notices them and corrects me, and that's one way of staying sharp and keeping those brain cells awake.)

 

[cortz#9]

Thanks. I really enjoy using this site, but currently my job and family obligations keep me from giving more than a few minutes at a time to AH. Writing a good TL requires time to do research and polish the writing, something I don't have the time to do. So I just drop a few ideas from time to time, and post on other people threads.
I have to confess I sometimes rush my posts (or post while engaged in one of those neverending nonproductive work conference calls) and make mistakes I shouldn't make. Usually somebody notices them and corrects me, and that's one way of staying sharp and keeping those brain cells awake.)

Yeah I remember one of your little mistakes had me looking for a plane that didn't exist LOL well it did but under another letter & number designation. I understand your reluctance to writing a TL I have them too but I'll probably try it some day and when I do I'll probably steal a lot of your ideas.