Germany builds another battleship instead of Graf Zeppelin

[SealTheRealDeal]

As the title suggests, Germany builds another battleship* instead of building its never commissioned aircraft carrier. What impact does this have on North Sea operations?

*perhaps a Scharnhorst sub-class armed with 15" guns, iirc there was a plan to replace their triple 11" turrets with double 15" turrets.

 

[Bob in Pittsburgh]

Whether you build another battleship or an aircraft carrier doesn't do much to alter the naval balance of power. Another battleship would require the British to maintain at least 2 modern battleships in the Home Fleet. This may have required the US to permanently commit a battleship centered task force to the North Atlantic, The removal of a South Dakota class battleship would not have had a marked effect on the Pacific war.

 

[tomo pauk]

Having another capital ship in service certainly beats not having a carrier. I do like the idea of 3x2x15in armament. If it can enter service before 1941 (might have happened), things for the RN can become ... interesting.

 

[James Ricker]

RAF: target practice

 

[CV12Hornet]

More likely it's a third Bismarck, due to the timing of Graf Zeppelin's order. She would likely enter service in late 1941 or early 1942.

 

[naraic]

Building a 3rd Scharnhorst would be a lot of hindsight (more likely to be completed earlier than a Bismarck). It's unlikely imo. We would see a 3rd Bismarck that might be completed and haunt the Norwegian fjords with Tirpitz.

Any ships Germany builds would have a much bigger impact if it enters service early in early 1941 at the latest imo.

Late 1941 could be a bonus for the Royal Navy (as it might stop the deployment of Force Z).

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

More likely it's a third Bismarck, due to the timing of Graf Zeppelin's order. She would likely enter service in late 1941 or early 1942.

Building a 3rd Scharnhorst would be a lot of hindsight (more likely to be completed earlier than a Bismarck). It's unlikely imo. We would see a 3rd Bismarck that might be completed and haunt the Norwegian fjords with Tirpitz.

Fair enough, I just looked for which of the two classes was closest to Graf Zeppelin in tonnage.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

More likely it's a third Bismarck, due to the timing of Graf Zeppelin's order. She would likely enter service in late 1941 or early 1942.

Definitely a third Bismarck and the British couldn't do a thing about it because Germany had enough tonnage for it under the AGNA. Graff Zeppelin was laid down about 6 weeks after Tirpitz so it could be completed as early as the middle of April 1941.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

RAF: target practice

It only took them 3½ years to sink Tirpitz and while they're failing to destroy the TTL Battleship H they're not bombing something else.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

So is a third Bismarck a butterfly that will avoid cancelling Lion & Temeraire?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

What would Battleship H be called?

I think it would have been called Admiral Hipper and Cruiser H would be called something else. However, that would confuse people.

It won't be launched until after Anschluss with Austria so how about Admiral Tegetthoff after Wilhelm von Tegetthoff?

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Probably Goetz von Berlichengen or Ulrich von Huetten as Hitler had floated those as possible H class names

 

[Monk78]

Arguably much better investment than an aircraft carrier ?

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

What would Battleship H be called?

I think it would have been called Admiral Hipper and Cruiser H would be called something else. However, that would confuse people.

It won't be launched until after Anschluss with Austria so how about Admiral Tegetthoff after Wilhelm von Tegetthoff?

Moltke, possibly?

 

[naraic]

Arguably much better investment than an aircraft carrier ?

A bad carrier with no doctrine and requiring carrier based planes to be developed.

I'd take a battleship over a carrier like that any day. Unless I had 10 years to learn lessons of carrier aviation.

 

[Monk78]

A bad carrier with no doctrine and requiring carrier based planes to be developed.

I'd take a battleship over a carrier like that any day. Unless I had 10 years to learn lessons of carrier aviation.

Indeed that’s what I was implying

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

It won't be launched until after Anschluss with Austria so how about Admiral Tegetthoff after Wilhelm von Tegetthoff?

Prinz Eugen was originally going to be called that, but it was felt that might upset the Italians.

If it is going to be a Bismarck class ship, then they might drop the name Tirpitz in favour of making the class into the German Unification Trio; Bismarck, Moltke, and Roon. Though the navy would probably take issue with that.

 

[AdA]

OTL they laid down the first two H class BB of Z plan, so they were past another Bismarck and the Battleship program was probably not in competition with the carriers. Construction was stopped in 1939. They ordered but never laid down 3 P class BC, and those would be the ones waiting for a free building dock. They might look like Scharnhorst but while S&G were battleships, just under armed ones, the Ps were real battlecruisers.
The first P was planned to be built at Deutsche Werke, Kiel, where GZ was being built.
I would guess the first P being built is a more likely option.
Wether it's better than another Scharnhorst or not depends on how you feel about battle cruisers.
The Ps were going to have 3x2 15'' but only a 180mm belt and would use diesels for a 33knot top speed.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Prinz Eugen was originally going to be called that, but it was felt that might upset the Italians.

I didn't know about Prinz Eugen but I did think that naming a ship after the man who won the Battle of Lissa wouldn't go down well with Mussolini.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

OTL they laid down the first two H class BB of Z plan, so they were past another Bismarck and the Battleship program was probably not in competition with the carriers. Construction was stopped in 1939. They ordered but never laid down 3 P class BC, and those would be the ones waiting for a free building dock. They might look like Scharnhorst but while S&G were battleships, just under armed ones, the Ps were real battlecruisers.
The first P was planned to be built at Deutsche Werke, Kiel, where GZ was being built.
I would guess the first P being built is a more likely option.
Wether it's better than another Scharnhorst or not depends on how you feel about battle cruisers.
The Ps were going to have 3x2 15'' but only a 180mm belt and would use diesels for a 33knot top speed.

The reason why the OTL Battleships H & J weren't laid down until the summer of 1939 was A) slipway capacity and B) they tinkered with the design while they were waiting.

In October 1935 IOTL the plan was to lay Battleship H down in October 1937 for completion in February 1941. (At that time BB F (Bismarck) was scheduled to be completed in October 1939 and Battleship G (Tirpitz) was due to be completed in February 1940). As already related that didn't happen (and Bismarck & Tirpitz were completed a year late as well).

Battleship J was added in January 1937 after the British announced Duke of York, Anson and Howe because that gave Germany enough tonnage for a fourth 35,000 ton capital ship under the AGNA. At that time the plan was to lay her down in May 1938 for completion in November 1941. Which didn't happen either.

However, ITTL Battleship H is laid down in December 1936 instead of Graff Zeppelin and Battleship J can be laid down instead of Aircraft Carrier B.

Except that I believe M.J. Whitley who says that Aircraft Carrier B was laid down 30th September 1936, three months before Graff Zeppelin. Everyone else thinks it was laid down after Prinz Eugen was launched and on the same slipway which means that Aircraft Carrier B could not be laid down any earlier than 22nd August 1938.

However, if Whitley and I are right Battleship H could be laid down at Germainiawerft (Kiel) on 30th September 1936 and if she can be built in 51 months (Bismarck was built in 50 months and Tirpitz in 52) she'd be completed in January 1941.

That leaves the slipway at Deutsche Werke (Kiel) that Graff Zeppelin was laid down on 28th December 1936 IOTL. It might still be unoccupied in January 1937 ITTL which would give the Kriegsmarine the opportunity to keep it empty until they are ready to lay Battleship J down on it.