Germany allowed fighters at Versailles

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Deleted member 1487

Assuming that at Versailles the Germans are allowed a small fighter and reconnaissance air force (handwavery), what effect does this have on rearmament? OTL Germany had some clandestine air units and planning, but had little research into military class engines, which badly affected rearmament in the late 1930's. German industry struggled to produce said engines until late in the war.
Also Germany pretty much had to create an air force general staff and officer corps from scratch, using army officers with little to no experience with the subject to lead the new service. Early on this proved not to be a handicap, but the need to rapidly expand the air service officer corps did limit how many trained leaders could be produced. This also had an effect on how many air units could be trained/formed.
Also the lack of tradition allowed the Luftwaffe to form a new doctrine divorced from the past; here it would have a fighter/intelligence focus for decades before rearmament starts. What would this mean for the Luftwaffe?
 
Assuming that at Versailles the Germans are allowed a small fighter and reconnaissance air force (handwavery), what effect does this have on rearmament? OTL Germany had some clandestine air units and planning, but had little research into military class engines, which badly affected rearmament in the late 1930's. German industry struggled to produce said engines until late in the war.
Also Germany pretty much had to create an air force general staff and officer corps from scratch, using army officers with little to no experience with the subject to lead the new service. Early on this proved not to be a handicap, but the need to rapidly expand the air service officer corps did limit how many trained leaders could be produced. This also had an effect on how many air units could be trained/formed.
Also the lack of tradition allowed the Luftwaffe to form a new doctrine divorced from the past; here it would have a fighter/intelligence focus for decades before rearmament starts. What would this mean for the Luftwaffe?

I can't see it making a huge difference (saying for example the Entente allowed them 3 squadrons of defensive fighters totaling no more than 36 active aircraft and 10 trainers or something like that)

such procurement would be so microscopic as to not warrant serious domestic military aircraft production and Germany would likely just end up buying the planes from someone else

and 3 little squadrons (or something like that) isn't going to warrant a serious command staff; and their training would likely boil down to interceptor training for potential enemy bombers coming to the border or something like that (one squadron north germany, one opposite france and one on the polish border)

the improvement in germany's pilot pool, doctrine, and command abilities from such a token domestic airforce would be more or less zero prior to rearming
 
Even if they were allowed to have them they would have been limited like every other military arm was. Having say a hundred planes will let you work on fighter design and keep a tiny cadre of experienced fliers that you can use to train an expanded air force. However all the planes and all the designs will still have to be built and created in the late thirties once Hitler begins rearmament. Having a small peace time force in place will not make for a significant difference. The Luftwaffe may have slightly better models and slightly better doctrine but will still be no match for the RAF unless someone other that Goering is in charge of it once Hitler comes to power.

Replacing Goering would make for a much larger change than simply having a few squadrons already in service.
 
Probably not all that much, since has been pointed out Germany found plenty of ways to circumvent the Versailles treaty by designing and building warplanes in places like Sweden, Finland, and the USSR during the interwar years. Letting them maintain a modest force of fighters would only put some of this activity in Germany. The only possible change you might see is that, to get around the limitations on bombers, Germany might focus its "official" domestic military aircraft designs on larger heavy multi-place "fighters" that could be easily converted to attack and light bombing roles. This could create a design and production inertia where such types continued to be favored even after limitations on bombers were removed in the late 1930's. Even in OTL, with the continued investment in planes like the Bf-110, Me-210 and Me-410 Germany seemed to favor the concept of multi-purpose heavy fighters more than most nations. The result of this might be be German air force in 1939 armed mainly with fighters like the Bf-110, Battle, or Fulmar, rather than mainly true single-seat fighters like the Bf-109 or He-112B.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Probably not all that much, since has been pointed out Germany found plenty of ways to circumvent the Versailles treaty by designing and building warplanes in places like Sweden, Finland, and the USSR during the interwar years. Letting them maintain a modest force of fighters would only put some of this activity in Germany. The only possible change you might see is that, to get around the limitations on bombers, Germany might focus its "official" domestic military aircraft designs on larger heavy multi-place "fighters" that could be easily converted to attack and light bombing roles. This could create a design and production inertia where such types continued to be favored even after limitations on bombers were removed in the late 1930's. Even in OTL, with the continued investment in planes like the Bf-110, Me-210 and Me-410 Germany seemed to favor the concept of multi-purpose heavy fighters more than most nations. The result of this might be be German air force in 1939 armed mainly with fighters like the Bf-110, Battle, or Fulmar, rather than mainly true single-seat fighters like the Bf-109 or He-112B.

OTL the Germans couldn't get around the engine issue. They could only buy foreign engines until the 1930's and lost over a decade of learning how to build higher HP engines themselves and producing them in numbers. If able to have their own military aircraft the benefit would be that they could design and build them own engines (unless there is a provision that they couldn't). That would be the big impact here, having the experience of mass producing and designing military-grade engines.
 
Replacing Goering would make for a much larger change than simply having a few squadrons already in service.

This is the real change I think. With the Luftstreitkräfte in mini form around it would be much harder for Goering to try to muscle his way in. I am not sure what exactly it gets you to be honest but more reasonable and clear German Airforce Leaderships is a reasonable hope. There were too many amateurs at the top like Goering and Udet. Maybe one of them stays in but gets real staff training in the 1920's; neither of them were above the rank of Captain during WW1. Hence the problem of in effect dumping a junior officer into General's Slot 15 years later.

Michael
 
OTL the Germans couldn't get around the engine issue. They could only buy foreign engines until the 1930's and lost over a decade of learning how to build higher HP engines themselves and producing them in numbers. If able to have their own military aircraft the benefit would be that they could design and build them own engines (unless there is a provision that they couldn't). That would be the big impact here, having the experience of mass producing and designing military-grade engines.

Being allowed a couple of squadrons (for arguments sake 36 active fighters) of fighters isn't going to create enough demand to get a domestic fighter engine production movement going anyway; Germany with such a small need will just buy their fighters from abroad
 
OTL the Germans couldn't get around the engine issue. They could only buy foreign engines until the 1930's and lost over a decade of learning how to build higher HP engines themselves and producing them in numbers. If able to have their own military aircraft the benefit would be that they could design and build them own engines (unless there is a provision that they couldn't). That would be the big impact here, having the experience of mass producing and designing military-grade engines.

I don't see Germany building all that many engines for its own needs. What this change would allow is for Germany to build for the export market. Numbers wouldn't be all that big but it would keep them busy I expect. The allies just about killed German Aircraft Manufacturing right after the war. It wasn't till 1920 I think that Germany could build civilian aircraft. This was hard on a number of manufactures.

Michael
 
Being allowed a couple of squadrons (for arguments sake 36 active fighters) of fighters isn't going to create enough demand to get a domestic fighter engine production movement going anyway; Germany with such a small need will just buy their fighters from abroad

Being allowed to build any aircraft means that some designers will keep doing it, just for the export market. Fokker ran a brisk trade selling stuff all over the place when he fled back to Holland after the war ended. I figure one or two of the German manufactures could keep themselves busy as a sideline on their civilian production. With some money slipped to them from the Military Black Budget to help things along. Looking at production runs in the US in the 1920's we aren't talking a lot here.

Michael
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Even if they were allowed to have them they would have been limited like every other military arm was. Having say a hundred planes will let you work on fighter design and keep a tiny cadre of experienced fliers that you can use to train an expanded air force. However all the planes and all the designs will still have to be built and created in the late thirties once Hitler begins rearmament. Having a small peace time force in place will not make for a significant difference. The Luftwaffe may have slightly better models and slightly better doctrine but will still be no match for the RAF unless someone other that Goering is in charge of it once Hitler comes to power.

Replacing Goering would make for a much larger change than simply having a few squadrons already in service.

With a hundred plane, they probably have 150 pilots, assuming single seat plane. The German will likely rotate people though active status and cheat, like the Army did, so 450 or more pilots is likely. These people will be the flag officers and squadron commanders in WW2. On the Doctrine, the Luftwaffe will have a complete, German Doctrine. It may be better or worse, but it will be fully evolved by the late 1930's. The Luftwaffe in this time line should be much more professional at the high levels. Not necessarily smarter, but more professional.

Probably not all that much, since has been pointed out Germany found plenty of ways to circumvent the Versailles treaty by designing and building warplanes in places like Sweden, Finland, and the USSR during the interwar years. Letting them maintain a modest force of fighters would only put some of this activity in Germany. The only possible change you might see is that, to get around the limitations on bombers, Germany might focus its "official" domestic military aircraft designs on larger heavy multi-place "fighters" that could be easily converted to attack and light bombing roles. This could create a design and production inertia where such types continued to be favored even after limitations on bombers were removed in the late 1930's. Even in OTL, with the continued investment in planes like the Bf-110, Me-210 and Me-410 Germany seemed to favor the concept of multi-purpose heavy fighters more than most nations. The result of this might be be German air force in 1939 armed mainly with fighters like the Bf-110, Battle, or Fulmar, rather than mainly true single-seat fighters like the Bf-109 or He-112B.

Agreed. The Luftwaffe will likely carry one plane, all roles to an extreme. The same thinking that goes into an F-15/F-16 can do any role from air superiority to CAS to attack shipping will be the most likely Luftwaffe doctrine. I see twin engine planes with huge load capabilities, and a focus on making very powerful engine and rugged frames. They will probably even try to figure out how to attack ships with it. Torpedo, wire-guided missile, etc.
 

Cook

Banned
OTL the Germans couldn't get around the engine issue. They could only buy foreign engines until the 1930's and lost over a decade of learning how to build higher HP engines themselves and producing them in numbers.

The Messerschmitt BF 109 first flew in 1935 and entered service in 1937 powered by the Daimler-Benz DB 601. A liquid cooled, inverted V-12 engine that was fuel injected, it was able to produce 809kW at Sea level and 750 kW at 15,000 ft. With a dry weight of 590 kg it had a power to weight ratio of 1.47 kW/kg. The BF 109 was fitted with a constant speed propeller, allowing it effectively apply the power produced by the engine to the propeller.

The comparable British aircraft is the Hurricane Mk 1, which also first flew in 1935 and entered service in 1937. It was powered by the Rolls-Royce Merlin, a normally aspirated V-12 engine that produced 775 kW at sea level. Fitted initially with a twin blade, constant pitch wooden propeller it struggled to translate that power into effective acceleration. The Hurricane and Spitfire entered the Second World War with three-blade, two pitch propellers that were significantly inferior to the constant speed props on the German aircraft. Because the Merlin engines were normally aspirated instead of fuel injected, the British aircraft had to maintain positive gee manoeuvres; if they did a negative gee manoeuvre they’d starve the engine of fuel. This meant that to dive, the British pilot had to execute a half roll and then dive; this meant they were both slower in the dive and less manoeuvrable. The Hurricanes and Spitfires only had constant speed propellers fitted during the Battle of Britain; ie. Nearly a year after the war commenced, and even then they were hindered by the lack of fuel injection until later in the war.

The main French fighter was the Morane-Saulnier M.S. 406, powered by the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, a V-12, liquid cooled engine that produced only 600 kW at Sea level, for a power to weight ratio of 1.32 kW/kg. The later, better performing Dewoitine D 520 used the same poor engine.

The American equivalent, the P-40, didn’t have its first flight until 1938, three years behind the BF 109. Powered by the Allison V12 engine that produced 775 kW for a power to weight ratio of 1.75 kW/kg.

In short the Germans did not lag behind in aircraft engine design, or in manufacture at the start of the war, in fact they led in engine design. German engine development from then on was hindered by Hitler insisting that since the war would be a short one, no new development work was to be undertaken that would interfere with the production of existing designs. That and the badly organised German command economy were the main factors in Germany not increasing engine production at the rate to match increased British engine production. The American economy was substantially larger and benefited from not entering the war until later with designs that were based on British experience in the European war. Later in the war the Germans were further hindered by a shortage of critical materials.
 
The Messerschmitt BF 109 first flew in 1935 and entered service in 1937 powered by the Daimler-Benz DB 601. A liquid cooled, inverted V-12 engine that was fuel injected, it was able to produce 809kW at Sea level and 750 kW at 15,000 ft. With a dry weight of 590 kg it had a power to weight ratio of 1.47 kW/kg. The BF 109 was fitted with a constant speed propeller, allowing it effectively apply the power produced by the engine to the propeller.

The comparable British aircraft is the Hurricane Mk 1, which also first flew in 1935 and entered service in 1937. It was powered by the Rolls-Royce Merlin, a normally aspirated V-12 engine that produced 775 kW at sea level. Fitted initially with a twin blade, constant pitch wooden propeller it struggled to translate that power into effective acceleration. The Hurricane and Spitfire entered the Second World War with three-blade, two pitch propellers that were significantly inferior to the constant speed props on the German aircraft. Because the Merlin engines were normally aspirated instead of fuel injected, the British aircraft had to maintain positive gee manoeuvres; if they did a negative gee manoeuvre they’d starve the engine of fuel. This meant that to dive, the British pilot had to execute a half roll and then dive; this meant they were both slower in the dive and less manoeuvrable. The Hurricanes and Spitfires only had constant speed propellers fitted during the Battle of Britain; ie. Nearly a year after the war commenced, and even then they were hindered by the lack of fuel injection until later in the war.

The main French fighter was the Morane-Saulnier M.S. 406, powered by the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, a V-12, liquid cooled engine that produced only 600 kW at Sea level, for a power to weight ratio of 1.32 kW/kg. The later, better performing Dewoitine D 520 used the same poor engine.

The American equivalent, the P-40, didn’t have its first flight until 1938, three years behind the BF 109. Powered by the Allison V12 engine that produced 775 kW for a power to weight ratio of 1.75 kW/kg.

In short the Germans did not lag behind in aircraft engine design, or in manufacture at the start of the war, in fact they led in engine design. German engine development from then on was hindered by Hitler insisting that since the war would be a short one, no new development work was to be undertaken that would interfere with the production of existing designs. That and the badly organised German command economy were the main factors in Germany not increasing engine production at the rate to match increased British engine production. The American economy was substantially larger and benefited from not entering the war until later with designs that were based on British experience in the European war. Later in the war the Germans were further hindered by a shortage of critical materials.

Lots of good points. The DB-601 engine was also equipped with an infinitely variable speed supercharger, superior to the single speed units, and not inferior to two-speed units. The VDM constant-speed propellor was a Hamilton Standard built under licence. The Zero also used a Hamilton Standard.

The 1920's were fairly static in airframe development, and "modern" fighters were only introduced in the early thirties, beginning with the Polikarpov I-16. All the WWI flyers still remembered how to fly, and they had the Boelke dicta for tactics. Moelders updated fighter tactics in Spain, giving Germany the codified lessons that others had to copy.
 

Deleted member 1487



The Messerschmitt BF 109 first flew in 1935 and entered service in 1937 powered by the Daimler-Benz DB 601. A liquid cooled, inverted V-12 engine that was fuel injected, it was able to produce 809kW at Sea level and 750 kW at 15,000 ft. With a dry weight of 590 kg it had a power to weight ratio of 1.47 kW/kg. The BF 109 was fitted with a constant speed propeller, allowing it effectively apply the power produced by the engine to the propeller.

The comparable British aircraft is the Hurricane Mk 1, which also first flew in 1935 and entered service in 1937. It was powered by the Rolls-Royce Merlin, a normally aspirated V-12 engine that produced 775 kW at sea level. Fitted initially with a twin blade, constant pitch wooden propeller it struggled to translate that power into effective acceleration. The Hurricane and Spitfire entered the Second World War with three-blade, two pitch propellers that were significantly inferior to the constant speed props on the German aircraft. Because the Merlin engines were normally aspirated instead of fuel injected, the British aircraft had to maintain positive gee manoeuvres; if they did a negative gee manoeuvre they’d starve the engine of fuel. This meant that to dive, the British pilot had to execute a half roll and then dive; this meant they were both slower in the dive and less manoeuvrable. The Hurricanes and Spitfires only had constant speed propellers fitted during the Battle of Britain; ie. Nearly a year after the war commenced, and even then they were hindered by the lack of fuel injection until later in the war.

The main French fighter was the Morane-Saulnier M.S. 406, powered by the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, a V-12, liquid cooled engine that produced only 600 kW at Sea level, for a power to weight ratio of 1.32 kW/kg. The later, better performing Dewoitine D 520 used the same poor engine.

The American equivalent, the P-40, didn’t have its first flight until 1938, three years behind the BF 109. Powered by the Allison V12 engine that produced 775 kW for a power to weight ratio of 1.75 kW/kg.

In short the Germans did not lag behind in aircraft engine design, or in manufacture at the start of the war, in fact they led in engine design. German engine development from then on was hindered by Hitler insisting that since the war would be a short one, no new development work was to be undertaken that would interfere with the production of existing designs. That and the badly organised German command economy were the main factors in Germany not increasing engine production at the rate to match increased British engine production. The American economy was substantially larger and benefited from not entering the war until later with designs that were based on British experience in the European war. Later in the war the Germans were further hindered by a shortage of critical materials.

The Germans had a hard time getting the DB601 in serial production (its predecessor the DB600 was a failure and scrapped), as they did with most engines above 1000hp like the Jumo 211. Most of the comparable engines didn't really enter into mass production until after the war started.
 
The Germans had a hard time getting the DB601 in serial production (its predecessor the DB600 was a failure and scrapped), as they did with most engines above 1000hp like the Jumo 211. Most of the comparable engines didn't really enter into mass production until after the war started.

Do you have any more information on this? I've never heard of any trouble, and the DB-600 was only dropped from production because of the decision to go with fuel injection. Germany did not go to war without engines in production.
 
This could set the precedent for Germany not having an independent airforce. The potential butterflies for German Military aviation come rearmament are enourmous.
 

Deleted member 1487

Do you have any more information on this? I've never heard of any trouble, and the DB-600 was only dropped from production because of the decision to go with fuel injection. Germany did not go to war without engines in production.

Homze talks about it in "Arming the Luftwaffe", but its quite difficult to find information about the German aero-engine industry. Overall unit production was pretty low. The industry relied almost exclusively on highly skilled master craftsmen rather than mass production. It also lacked major investment by the RLM and cooperation with the auto engine industry, which helped in Britain. Also the Luftwaffe (though not just the Luftwaffe) was short some 30,000 engineers that prevented industry and repair units from operating at fully efficiency. Its a major reason repairs had to be done at facilities back in Germany rather than in the field.
 

amphibulous

Banned
Much of this thread is garbage level.

- Talking about the German airforce "improving" to the level of the RAF is insane. They were the world leaders in tactical doctrine, and the Me109 appeared years before the Spitfire.

- The idea that they'd have standardized on heavy twin engine multi-role aircraft doesn't have even a semi-intelligent rationale attached. The Germans had an acute understanding of the needs of air to air combat from their experience in Spain. If anything more time would given them the opportunity to see that heavy twin engines could never be the answer. (Even light twins like the P38 suffer from high cost and hence the Lanchester Equation.)

- The idea that more twin engines would have caused them to make magical strides in weapons technology is just that - magical. The German armaments industry was already maxed out.

Otoh, the discussion that Cook started about engine production is ***fact based*** and excellent.
 
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Deleted member 1487

- The idea that more twin engines would have caused them to make magical strides in weapons technology is just that - magical. The German armaments industry was already maxed out.

It was terribly mismanaged. Read Homze for a more detailed explanation of why. There were things that could have been done to boost production, but given the major command fragmentation that occurred after Wever's death rationalization was difficult to push through until the war.
 
With a hundred plane, they probably have 150 pilots, assuming single seat plane. The German will likely rotate people though active status and cheat, like the Army did, so 450 or more pilots is likely. These people will be the flag officers and squadron commanders in WW2. On the Doctrine, the Luftwaffe will have a complete, German Doctrine. It may be better or worse, but it will be fully evolved by the late 1930's. The Luftwaffe in this time line should be much more professional at the high levels. Not necessarily smarter, but more professional.



Agreed. The Luftwaffe will likely carry one plane, all roles to an extreme. The same thinking that goes into an F-15/F-16 can do any role from air superiority to CAS to attack shipping will be the most likely Luftwaffe doctrine. I see twin engine planes with huge load capabilities, and a focus on making very powerful engine and rugged frames. They will probably even try to figure out how to attack ships with it. Torpedo, wire-guided missile, etc.

100 planes is rediculous; even my suggestion for 36 is probably too high; the entire british defense fighter force at some points after the war was only a single squadron of sopwith camels; and they are going to allow Germany 100 fighters?
 
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