Germany Adopts AH Tank in 1911

trajen777

Banned
In 1911 AH had developed a med (light?) tank with a good power to weight ratio. Lets say that the Germans or CP adopted this in medium numbers vs the Cav divisions and it was used to disrupt Allied movement or communications and artillery units. Or in Pursuit of the BEF ?


An engineer born in Austro-Hungary, Günther Burstyn, designed a very strange tank early on, in 1911, which was tailored to cross trenches of all sizes. This was the Burstyn Motorgeschütz. It was relatively small, with a fully revolving turret armed with a light 47 mm (1.85 in) Skoda gun, and a crew of two. The great advantage of this experimental design were the articulated arms linked to the rear and front axles that could swing freely on the terrain, using massive coils. Basically, these arms were raised when crossing bad terrain to avoid being stuck in obstacles, and lowered on the ground to allow trench crossing. The choice of this kind of solution offered the possibility to use a smaller vehicle, yet with a more powerful power-to-weight ratio, which was vital for mobility in general.

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trajen777

Banned
About the tank:

Crew: 3 (commander /loader, gunner, driver)

Length : 3,5m without extension

Height and width : 1,9m

Weight : 6.4t

Engine: 45hp truck gasoline

Top speed: 29km/h

Armor: Front: 8mm , side and rear: 4mm

Gun: 37mm
 

trajen777

Banned
I'm not sure its as cut and dry as that. The pursuit would have forced the Brits further back and prob not allowed their participation in the B of Marne. It was a very close run thing so a small change either way wold have made many the difference
 

nbcman

Donor
As there were no trenches for either side during the mobile phases of the war on the Western Front up to the Battle of the Marne in mid September 1914, they would have been unnecessary at best or they would have slowed down the German advance due to the increased need for gasoline to keep the proto-tanks running. A proto-armored car would have been more useful.

EDIT: The proposed proto-tank would have been useful in 1915 during the German attack at Ypres (2nd Ypres).
 
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About the tank:

Comparison with the A7V:

Crew: 3 (commander /loader, gunner, driver)
A7V: 18: commander, driver, mechanic, signaller, 6 MG loaders, 6 machine gunners, main gunner, loader
Length : 3,5m without extension
A7V: 7.34 m
Height and width : 1,9m
A7V: Height 3.3 m, width 3 m
Weight : 6.4t
A7V: 33 t
Engine: 45hp truck gasoline
A7V: 2 x 100 hp Daimler-Benz 4-cylinder gasoline
Top speed: 29km/h
A7V: 15 km/h on roads
Armor: Front: 8mm , side and rear: 4mm
A7V: Front: 30 mm, side and rear: 15 mm, top: 5 mm
Gun: 37mm
A7V: 57 mm gun and 6 x 7.9 mm machine guns

With 8 mm of armor (I can't say what that is proof against) this AH tank would have been similarly armored to a WW2 armored car, such as the Kfz 13 (~8 mm armor) or the better known Sd Kfz 221/222/223, with 5-14.5 mm armor. Of course, the specs might have been significant in 1914 compared to Allied cavalry, but the Allies surely would have recognized the existence of an AH tank, and they would've had time to develop defenses against it, even if that meant thick sheet-metal plates attached to trucks with 20-40 mm cannon mounted on the bed.

I agree that a proto-armored car might have been more useful, but again any weapon introduced by AH/Germany in 1911 would have given the Allies a couple of years to think up a counter-weapon. Instead of a shorter WW1 we might have seen a longer and more brutal war of maneuver before the phase of trench warfare began.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Not "introduced" into service in 1911/12, but "accepted" to start serieous trials on it - and NOT in the "open" but rather concealed to foreign observers somewhere in East-Prussia i.e..

That would/could lead to some furtehr developements, like - most likely - skipping the rather awkward trench-climbing-crossing device, as ot would prove more of a hinderance in the prussian forests, where tested.
Also, given the a certain (german ?) tendendy for GROW, it would do so in terms of size, weight and probably also armor (not the 30 mm of the A7V but somewhere in the 15 mm range for frontal and turret armor).
Further, the backwards-looking driver with periskope in the original design would most likely be switched forward due to trials.

IMO it could develop in early 1914 into a ready for production type similar to like the Vickers Mk II... only with a gun in a larger turret, weight somewhere around 13-15 t.
Therefore : for the "initial" advances there would most liekly no more than a few, half a dozen maybe "test" vehicles be availabe, but increasing numbers from late summer/early autumn 1914 onwards (1st Battle of Ypres ! or even earlier) ... only then the allies would "see" them and would/could start their counter-developement (if they would have/get the time for - before defeat).

EDIT :
An - perhaps - somehting like the "Sturmpanzerwagen Oberschlesien" already in 1916.
 
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My good guess is that if the Germans and the CP decide to utilize this fancy project (say when the stalemate breaks out in 1914), tank development in general would take a more interesting direction; less stuff like the rhombloid tanks and more like the Renault FTs and Whippets only that the CP have their equivalents as well ITTL.
 
As there were no trenches for either side during the mobile phases of the war on the Western Front up to the Battle of the Marne in mid September 1914, they would have been unnecessary at best or they would have slowed down the German advance due to the increased need for gasoline to keep the proto-tanks running. A proto-armored car would have been more useful.

There were trenches in 1914 already - in various fortifications. A tank might be developed for same purposes as a siege gun, to fight fortifications. For that a tank should have, I guess, a strong frontal armor and perhaps an explosive charge which could be dropped to suitable location. So, more like an assault gun than a tank.

For armored cavalry better armored cars would be more realistic option, I'd guess.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
There were trenches in 1914 already - in various fortifications. A tank might be developed for same purposes as a siege gun, to fight fortifications. For that a tank should have, I guess, a strong frontal armor and perhaps an explosive charge which could be dropped to suitable location. So, more like an assault gun than a tank.

For armored cavalry better armored cars would be more realistic option, I'd guess.

Yes, Armored cars are a lot more realistic. It is also important to note that there would not be that many of these vehicles. It has been a while since I have looked at the prewar German army funding bills, but IMO, authorizing more than a battalion of them is politically unlikely. A regiment of these vehicles would require all the political stars in Germany to align. When WW1 started, the Germans had trucking battalions to improve logistics. My best guess is that armored cars would be used in the same units these trucking battalions were to be attached to. I have not studied the battles of the western front to find out where the OTL trucks were used in August of 1914.
 
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