Germans Win Stalingrad

There isn't anything the Germans could have done with a 1942 POD to win Stalingrad once Hitler split up Army Group South to attack the oilfields and Stalingrad simultaneously. Paullus was simply given a task where if the Soviets did what they did OTL, there was nothing he could do.

But there is a way the Germans could win. One involves borderline ASB, with the Soviets just keep missing their shots. If it's possible to miss 1,000 times in a row, isn't missing every single shot possible?

Alternately, the Germans could win with Soviet tactical stupidity.

Well, I'm wondering how stupid they need to be. Let's go with pushing the medium tanks (like the T34) and the heavy tanks to the maximum, ordering them to attack the German front in September of 1942. And I mean "full speed ahead" even if that means not waiting for supporting infantry or even the ammo truck to catch up. Is this dumb enough? Or do we need to make them even dumber to lose (I think at this point, the Soviets outgunned the Axis forces 3 to 1 and outnumbered them even more in this theatre and the German supply line is streached)?
 
Suggesting the Soviets go on the offensive before they even have made a stable defensive line is pretty much ASB since its the same as giving all Soviet commanders the brain capacity of a donut.
 
Suggesting the Soviets go on the offensive before they even have made a stable defensive line is pretty much ASB since its the same as giving all Soviet commanders the brain capacity of a donut.

Yeah. From the Soviet perspective, it wasn’t just Stalingrad, it was Stalingrad. The Germans could have turned Stalingrad into a parking lot and sent in the SS to paint the lines, and they stil would not have given up the city. Because it was Stalingrad.
 
Suggesting the Soviets go on the offensive before they even have made a stable defensive line is pretty much ASB since its the same as giving all Soviet commanders the brain capacity of a donut.

Well, considering their superior was Stalin, if he told them to move to counterattack early to save Stalingrad, a guy with a brain capacity greater than a donut realizes the odds of surviving is better following the military plan that has a lower chance of success... The problem is that I don't think the proposed plan is dumb enough.
 
OK Damn that stupid "Necro" rule on that thread. I understand the idea, but 4 months is too quick, 38-40 would be better. Now I can't ask the OP of that thread

Anyways, the basic problem isn't giving the 6th army enough penetrating power. Even if they complete all their objectives by November, they would be doomed if the 3rd Romanian army failed and Hitler's orders didn't allow for it to go back for a counterpunch once they took Stalingrad. So the 3rd Romanian army needs to hold out on its own or until renfrocements can arrive.

In OTL, the Romanians actually saw the Soviet attack coming weeks ahead of schedule and told the Germans to help them (or at least give them towed and shoulder anti-tank weapons), and the German officers said (to effect), "Only Hitler can allow a change in deployment."

So maybe if the Germans did something that gave the Romanians the requested anti-tank weapons and if the Germans could free up the 6th Army by November as @History Learner suggested, they could inflict a devastating counterattack. Thanks to Hitler's obsession with Stalingrad (to be fair did have material value in containing 1/8 of the Soviet surviving Armored vehicle production capability), he probably isn't going to give permission to the 6th to move until the city is firmly in Axis hands.

I agree the Romanians were better than they were given credit for, but there isn't much they could do if they were short on food, panzerschrecks, pak 36s, Marder IIIs, and towed anti-tank guns. Oh wait, the panzerschreck only had proto-types and wasn't massed produced until 1943 and the Germans couldn't give it to them if they wanted to. Well, anyways, short of Soviet stupidity, the Romanians were sunk without anti-tank weapons.
 
Wait, small difference History Leanrer. In your post, case Bleu proceeds without mission creep. This makes the 6th army ready for the counterpunch. Once Stalingrad is a key objective, how if the 6th Army supposed to take Stalingrad and get back in time to support the Romanian 3rd Army to destroy the Soviet tanks if the Soviets use OTL timetable? Just 35 more days might be enough time to take Stalingrad. Now with Soviet tactical stupidity of attacking in September and facing the Romanian 3rd as well as the rear elements of the German spearhead I can see it happening, but I don't see how this can be done by changing German decisions while retaining the questionable "attack caucuses and Stalingrad" and boneheaded "6th Army needs to take Stalingrad before it can go anywhere else."
 

Ian_W

Banned
Wait, small difference History Leanrer. In your post, case Bleu proceeds without mission creep.

By that, you mean 'Case Blau proceeds to no strategic point whatsoever, as Germany has no chance of capturing the oil needed to sustain the war effort'.
 
By that, you mean 'Case Blau proceeds to no strategic point whatsoever, as Germany has no chance of capturing the oil needed to sustain the war effort'.

Well, in "Case Blau - Is a rethinking in order?" he suggests the 6th army hangs around until the Soviet armored divisions were destroyed, allowing the Romanians (which had 1/3o as many anti-tank wepaons per man) to hold the flank before the 6th goes to other objectives (I guess Stalingrad? It does have material importance and it was on Hitler's wish list before).

I'm saying in TTL Hitler orders the split in Army Group South like OTL. He also demands the 6th Army to prioritize Stalingrad and not worry about the flank like OTL. Taken literally, this means they can't do anything once they take Stalingrad and must sit there for the rest of the war. Taken less literally, I interpret this to mean "Go take Stalingrad and I'll have you help out allies once this is done. But I decide when your job is done and who you help afterwards." I don't see how the Germans can win the battle of Stalingrad against the incoming Soviet counterattack with these two OTL restrictions. With an additional 35 days of nice weather which the Germans don't have, they could capture the city and start trying to backtrack to help their flank, but they don't have 35 days more than OTL because I can't see how to give it to them.

So I was wondering if the Soviets changed their September tactics to "CHARGE everything with amour. Forward!" would that be dumb enough to make them lose? Or is that not dumb enough? Alternately, if you can think of a way for the Germans to win at Stalingrad with the split in Army Group South and the 6th Army stuck on its one mission for Stalingrad, let me know. You seem to have an idea since you said "'You mean Case Blau proceeds to no strategic point whatsoever"
 

Ian_W

Banned
If the 6th Army doesn't, well, try and take Stalingrad, then the operation is pointless, just leaving a bunch of Germans on the steppe for no good reason.

If the 6th Army leaves itself with an open flank, then it's risking early encirclement.

Finally, the Soviets did commit substantial forces in front of Stalingrad in August, and pretty much lost them. They dont have the resources for a counterattack in September (unless something really dumb happens, like the 6th Army leaving a completely open flank).
 
If the 6th Army doesn't, well, try and take Stalingrad, then the operation is pointless, just leaving a bunch of Germans on the steppe for no good reason.

Maybe not pointless, there is the point in destroying the Soviet military formations in the South. But I agree not taking Stalingrad at some point is dumb.

History Learner suggests the 6th help secure the Don after the Romanians rebuffed some early attacks (and found a bunch of soviet armor building up on the same side of the Don which prompted their call for help). Once this armor is destroyed, he then suggests taking Stalingrad (after all, the whole campaign is stupid if they didn't do that...).

If the 6th Army leaves itself with an open flank, then it's risking early encirclement.

See the thing is that the Romanian 3rd was defending the German flank, but they had almost no anti-tank weapons. Except the artillery, which I don't think is designed to hit moving tanks. In OTL the 6th went straight for Stalingrad, leaving their flank inadequately defended which is what led to OTL defeat.

They dont have the resources for a counterattack in September (unless something really dumb happens, like the 6th Army leaving a completely open flank).

Yes and no. Much of the armor that would take part of OTL counterattack was built up on the Axis flank but at that time the Romanian 3rd was within the support range of the German 6th spearheading the assault on Stalingrad itself. They didn't attack yet because they were waiting for motorized infantry (guys in trucks so flimsy a rifle bullet puts a hole in them), ammunition supplies, artillery, and anti-aircraft weaponry to come. Also, General Winter. While they waited, the 6th pushed deeper into Stalingrad (while the defenders desperately tried to hold out) and the attack force organized and prepared themselves.

While there wasn't much the defenders of Stalingrad had to throw for a counterattack, the force that in OTL crushed the Germans had most of their tanks. It is possible for them to assault the Germans immediately in September to counterattack and (try to) relieve pressure on the defenders of Stalingrad.

The problem with this (aside from the fact that the attack force itself wasn't organized) is that attacking the Romanian 3rd army allows the German 6th to come in and help within 3 days. Since they would be attacking areas that were not marked "consolidated" by Berlin, this means the 6th Army is free to defend this area without running afoul of the micromanagement. With the armor defeated, the 6th Army would follow orders to Stalingrad (again, it needs to be taken at the end of 1942) and the Soviets would only have 3 bridgeheads and their army minus most armor for another counterattack. Except this still leaves the Soviets outnumbering the Axis forces locally quite badly and I'm not sure a moronic September tank attack is enough to make the Soviets lose
 
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