Germans had not abandoned Cavity Magnetron

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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I'm wondering about how this would alter the careers of The Twins.
  1. Would they have sunk Renown in their encounter with her off Norway in 1940?
  2. Would they have sunk Glorious, Acasta and Ardent faster? IIRC Scharnhorst was torpedoed in the action and Gneisenau was torpedoed by a submarine in an operation intended to cover the damaged Scharnhorst's passage back to Germany. If they had been less heavily damaged they might have had time to fit in another Atlantic sortie before conducting the one of OTL.
  3. If Brest was better protected could they have been made operational in time to come out and support Bismarck and Prinz Eugen?
  4. It looks as if Bismarck would have made St Nazaire ITTL and then be transferred to Brest to join the Twins and Prinz Eugen. The RAF would be throwing everything it had at them, but the improved AA defences would make them pay a heavy price and while the RAF was bombing Brest it wasn't bombing Germany. If the Channel Dash is as OTL they all reach Germany safely apart from mine damage.
  5. If the improved effectiveness of Germany's AA defences prevents the bombing of Gneisenau in 1942 then the Germans have a fleet in being consisting of Bismarck, Tirpitz and both Twins at least until the end of 1943, which was when Scharnhorst was sunk IOTL. But ITTL the Arctic convoys might not be attempted at all had Germany possessed a fleet that strong.
 

Deleted member 1487

It's a bit of a misconception that German radar was more advanced than British in 1940. Naturally, German sets that were just entering service were more sophisticated than the CH system that had been up-and-running for several years, but that's hardly surprising. If you compare like-for-like the Germans were never ahead.

I also think people wildly exaggerate the US role in producing the proximity fuse. The important part was coming up with the idea and designing the circuit: hardening the components to withstand g-forces was just 'cookbook' engineering that could be done by any moderately-skilled person: try something - if it fails modify it and try again. It might take time and resources but did not require any great genius to do.
CH entered service in 1938 and was as least advanced as possible to rush it into service, the Germans meanwhile too their time to make much more accurate radar, which took longer to get into service. Comparing the British gunnery radar of 1940-41 and the German Wurzburg sets were much better and what the Germans captured in France in 1940 from the BEF was years behind the state of the art in Germany. The problem was of course the cavity magnetron and Tizard Mission, which turned the US electronics industry into a research machine for the British, which yielded the wealth of advanced radar units for both the UK and US of OTL from 1942 on.

As to the proxy fuse...the US was pretty crucial for that, as the Brits weren't doing it themselves. The US was the one that designed it and mass produced it, same with the cavity magnetron beyond the first experiments the British turned over to them.
 

Deleted member 1487

If the bombers go higher, then the Germans will switch to 105 production since they have too many 88mm. Can I move the excess 88mm to the east and be effective? Say in Stalingrad? Or around Kursk? Or staging areas for major attacks? Or is it really only heavy bomber effective?

It looks like to me, that bomber command never really gets going. Either US or UK. We broke the Luftwaffe in March 1944, ITTL, it will not happen to 1945 at the earliest. A lot changes. Also, we have really wanked German industrial production since there will be many fewer bomber raids. Lot more tanks, trucks, etc. Maybe that first big attack on Hamburg that worked so well fails, and causes a bomber halt?

88s will remain useful in the West, but perhaps some can be shifted east. Not sure how many thought, especially if they cut production. 88s will still be useful against Allied medium bombers.
Bomber Command would have a hard time going if the Germans are substantially ahead in terms of radar and staying ahead of countermeasures...but much depends on whether German radar stagnates or not as per OTL; they are satisfied by what they have and don't try to continue to leapfrog the Allies until too late. Its funny that radar was one of the areas they decided that more of existing technology with limited tweeks was better than investing in revolutionary technology.

Now as to the Luftwaffe they would still have the fighter problem of masses of long range US fighters strafing anything that moves all over Europe, while the Mediterranean theater is still a major source of losses for the Germans. Improved radar isn't going to save Tunisia or Sicily. However in terms of production the major changes compared to OTL won't really be felt until 1943 with the Battle of the Ruhr and bombing of Hamburg assuming that happens as per OTL or whether more RAF losses in the first of the 1000 bomber raids is a deterrent in early 1942 or even earlier in smaller missions. Likely the Brits keep plugging away and modifying tactics and ECM to try and blind the radar, aided by Operation Biting capturing a set in France. The strategic air war might well still go on and just be more sophisticated, but less successful and costly to the Allies.
 
...while the Mediterranean theater is still a major source of losses for the Germans. Improved radar isn't going to save Tunisia or Sicily.
It might if they trade their radar technology with the Italians for my favourite game changer (their aeroplane launched torpedoes) and improved radar improved the performance of the Regia Navale in its encounters with the other Royal Navy. IIRC they did supply the Regia Navale with sonars, which they used effectively, AFAIK the Italian A/S technique became second only to the British.

E.g. what if Taranto had been defended by AA guns directed by German supplied GL radar and firing German derived proximity fuses? Would German supplied gunnery radar have helped the Italians at Punta Stilo and Cape Spada? I presume that it would have been a dead certainty to have helped the Italians at Matapan.
 
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Deleted member 1487

It might if they trade their radar technology with the Italians for my favourite game changer (their aeroplane launched torpedoes) and improved radar improved the performance of the Regia Navale in its encounters with the other Royal Navy. IIRC they did supply the Regia Navale with sonars, which they used effectively, AFAIK the Italian A/S technique became second only to the British.

E.g. what if Taranto had been defended by AA guns directed by German supplied GL radar and firing German derived proximity fuses? Would German supplied gunnery radar have helped the Italians at Punta Stilo and Cape Spada? I presume that it would have been a dead certainty to have helped the Italians at Matapan.
They already had the Italian torpedo license pre-war by 1938. Radar is a LOT more valuable and not something to risk compromising by giving to the Italians, who have a lot of difficulty making German radar themselves IOTL. The RA's biggest problem was lack of oil beyond anything else. Sometimes IOTL though the Germans sent radar units operated by Germans to help Italian ships.

There is virtually no way the Germans would have any radar to spare by 1940 for the Italians, so Taranto is not going to be properly defended; IOTL they had only a couple handfuls of sets operational themselves that were mobile. Plus there is no way, even with a cavity magnetron, that the German proximity fuse project would have been completed by 1940 and if it were there would be none to spare for the Italians.
 
I also think people wildly exaggerate the US role in producing the proximity fuse. The important part was coming up with the idea and designing the circuit: hardening the components to withstand g-forces was just 'cookbook' engineering that could be done by any moderately-skilled person: try something - if it fails modify it and try again. It might take time and resources but did not require any great genius to do.

Yet the UK never mass produced a circuit that was reliable even for bombs or rockets, let alone cannons, and Germans never got that far.
They were off in the weeds looking at acoustic and photocells.

Tiny tubes that could broadcast and receive, then tiny batteries was beyond the moderately-skilled person. Mass production of same, another level harder.

If it was easy, everyone would have had them by 1942
 

Deleted member 1487

Yet the UK never mass produced a circuit that was reliable even for bombs or rockets, let alone cannons, and Germans never got that far.
They were off in the weeds looking at acoustic and photocells.

Tiny tubes that could broadcast and receive, then tiny batteries was beyond the moderately-skilled person. Mass production of same, another level harder.

If it was easy, everyone would have had them by 1942
Do you have a source on that?
 
Do you have a source on that?

Following the Crosley Corp. contract, production was increased to great numbers. Beginning in September 1942, newly established facilities commenced production of the ruggedized miniature tube in large quantities. In October 1942 an average of 500 tubes were being manufactured daily. After the fuze had been proven in combat the expansion of manufacturing facilities was rapidly increased. By the end of 1943 almost 2 million had been delivered. By the end of 1944, 87 contractors, operating 110 plants, were manufacturing parts of the fuze which at that time were being delivered at the rate of 40,000 per day. Procurement contracts increased annually from $60 million in 1942, to $200 million in 1943, to $300 million in 1944 and were topped by $450 million in 1945. Of course, as volume increases cost decreases, and the cost per fuze that had started at $732 in 1942 dropped to $18 in 1945. This permitted the purchase of over 22 million fuzes for approximately $1,010 million.

Many companies involved

Fuze assembly was concentrated in the plants of the Crosley Corp., the Radio Corporation of America, Eastman Kodak Company, and the McQuay-Norris Company. Mass production of the ruggedized miniature tubes had to be limited to Sylvania Electric Products, Inc., since they proved to be the only firm capable of combining quality and quantity. Cost of tubes declined with increased production from $5.05 in 1942 to $0.40 in 1945


http://www.smecc.org/radio_proximity_fuzes.htm

as is often pointed out in What-iffery, there are trade-odds.

what do the Germans or British give up to invest in110 plants producing a billion dollars worth of radio fuzes?

Neither country was in the business before the War in mass producing radios and parts as the USA was. Marconi and Siemens were big, but not RCA big.

Part of the Tizard Mission the Brits admitted they didn't think the circuit they had would ever be able to resist the G Force of a cannon firing, 20,000G.
The Brits had been ordering thousands of photoelectric cells for their VT tests. Germans were testing Acoustic and Electrostatic
 

Deleted member 1487

http://www.smecc.org/radio_proximity_fuzes.htm

as is often pointed out in What-iffery, there are trade-odds.

what do the Germans or British give up to invest in110 plants producing a billion dollars worth of radio fuzes?

Neither country was in the business before the War in mass producing radios and parts as the USA was. Marconi and Siemens were big, but not RCA big.

Part of the Tizard Mission the Brits admitted they didn't think the circuit they had would ever be able to resist the G Force of a cannon firing, 20,000G.
The Brits had been ordering thousands of photoelectric cells for their VT tests. Germans were testing Acoustic and Electrostatic
That isn't what I asked; I asked for a source that the Brits and Germans didn't have their own micro-tube industries/technologies. Of course neither small European country could achieve was the US did in terms of economies of scale, but production lines in both countries did get quite large. For instance the Me109 was the most produced fighter of WW2.
 
That isn't what I asked; I asked for a source that the Brits and Germans didn't have their own micro-tube industries/technologies. Of course neither small European country could achieve was the US did in terms of economies of scale, but production lines in both countries did get quite large. For instance the Me109 was the most produced fighter of WW2.

Siemens and Marconi both made small tubes for hearing aids before the war.

But they were not making as many tubes as the US was, US was world leader in electronics before the War

neither tested them in cannons as the US did. They were unable to make them, which is why they were testing the non-radar methods.

But more important, you glossed over the reason I listed: they didn't have enough slack in their electronics industry.

US spent about half of what the Manhattan Project cost on VT.

What gets cut in Germany or UK to make room? Their resources, money and workers are fixed, finite: reallocation must happen.

and even then, may not have success, as I listed that only Sylvania was able to make both a cheap and reliable tube, no guarantee that other companies could be as successful

Say Marconi could make a fuze, but cost £500 each?
Could they be able to make millions at that price?

The US was the master of mass production, from Liberty Ships on down. Other countries were just not as good as that
33,000 for the ME-109 isn't bad, but 19,000 B-24s is far more impressive, since it only started in production in 1940, 4 years after the 109.

The US made almost 100,000 fighters from 1940 to 1945, and Lend-Leased about 25% to the UK&USSR
 

Deleted member 1487

Again do you have a source that they couldn't make what the US did or just that they didn't even try? I'm thinking industrial lack of slack was more the reason. The US really was able to by pulling in the lamp making industry into electronics manufacturing for tubes for the proximity fuse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_fuze#Production
First large scale production of tubes for the new fuzes[2] was at a General Electric plant in Cleveland, Ohio formerly used for manufacture of Christmas-tree lamps. Fuze assembly was completed at General Electric plants in Schenectady, New York and Bridgeport, Connecticut.[19]

For the Germans they could cut the V-2 project. They spent more on that than the US spent on the Atomic bomb.
 
Again do you have a source that they couldn't make what the US did or just that they didn't even try?

Tizard mission. They admitted working with, but were unable for cannons

British military researchers Sir Samuel Curran and W.A. S. Butement invented a proximity fuze in the early stages of World War II. The design was shown to the United States during the Tizard Mission. The fuze needed to be miniaturized and survive the high acceleration of cannon launch
http://www.secnav.navy.mil/innovation/Documents/2015/11/TizardProgramFinal.pdf


For the Germans they could cut the V-2 project. They spent more on that than the US spent on the Atomic bomb.

Good luck getting AH to give up a Vengeance Weapon. He could have put emphasis on Surface to Air Missiles like Wasserfall or Rheintochter, but didn't over the V-2
 

Deleted member 1487

Tizard mission. They admitted working with, but were unable for cannons

British military researchers Sir Samuel Curran and W.A. S. Butement invented a proximity fuze in the early stages of World War II. The design was shown to the United States during the Tizard Mission. The fuze needed to be miniaturized and survive the high acceleration of cannon launch
http://www.secnav.navy.mil/innovation/Documents/2015/11/TizardProgramFinal.pdf
The Tizard mission was more about lack of capacity to do it themselves, rather than inability to do it technically. Hence why they outsourced as much as possible to the US via LL. British production and material numerical superiority to the Germans was a function of LL and US support.

Good luck getting AH to give up a Vengeance Weapon. He could have put emphasis on Surface to Air Missiles like Wasserfall or Rheintochter, but didn't over the V-2
Sure, he loved offensive weapons over defensive. But my point was it was an issue of resource allocation, not inability to do so. I mean Hitler had his scientists working on death rays and wind guns:
http://www.ww2f.com/topic/29137-german-wind-cannon/
http://greyfalcon.us/restored/AN INVENTORY OF NAZI SECRET WEAPONS.htm
 
Would radar with cavity magnetrons (with or without the aid of VT fuses) have helped significantly on the Eastern Front?

IIRC from Green and Fricker the Soviets had 8,800 aircraft on the Front at the start of 1944 compared to 2,000 Luftwaffe aircraft (I can't remember if that included their allies or not). How many more Soviet aircraft would the Flaktruppen have to shoot down between June 1941 and the end of 1943 to reduce that total significantly? Even if the Soviet factories and aircrew training organisation could replace the losses would there be a reduction in the quality of Soviet aircrew because they acquired less combat experience before being shot down?
 
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