Germans Gas only the Soviets: How do the Western Allies React?

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

1) Starting in 1942, the Germans decide to start using gas on the Eastern Front against the Soviets.

2) Through diplomatic back channels, the Germans let the Western Allies know they have no intention of using gas on them.

3) How do the Western Allies respond? Do they still use gas on Germany or do they hold back? What kind of chemical weapons stockpiles do the Soviets have? How does Stalin react, if the Western Allies refuse to use gas?

 

[Post]

My guess is that the western allies will use gas.

The use of gas will bite the Germans in the ass though, because they largely relied on horses, whereas the allies didn't.

 

[stodge]

It's a fascinating question and one worthy of consideration.

It would represent a terrifying escalation of the conflict - the gases and nerve agents available to both sides were an order of magnitude more efficient and effective than those used in WW1. Imagine a V1 or V2 carrying Tabun or Sarin or artillery shells filled with nerve agents.

The other truth is unless you have a monopoly on a weapon (the atomic bomb), you have to have a defence. There was no meaningful defence to tabun, sarin or other gases. Their use would probably have brought the fighting to a halt and, if escalating to attacks on civilian populations, have caused huge losses and the rapid breakdown of Governments and armies.

 

[Orry]

The Germans would probably sell it as

The Soviets have used Gas

We are retaliating

We know that the Western Allies have not used Gas so we are only using it on the Eastern front.

After all they tried to fake the story that the Poles had started the war.

Problems with this

1. Hitler was rather anti the use of Gas on the battle field due to his experiences in WW1

2. The slippery slope is not always a falecy. Once you use it on the Eastern front do you use it against Partisans in Russia? In Yougoslavia and the Balkans?

 

[HexWargamer]

The 'problem' with mustard gas, is it's just not that effective = in fact the Britihs were expecting the Nazi's to use of gas == everyone was issued with a gas mask ... BUT this is only going to be of use against the WW1 gasses, not the nerve gasses the nazi's are cooking up.... (and the Brits don't know about).
My guess is that the Brits won't bother with mustard gas etc. The high explosive bombs the RAF are dropping meet Harris goal of 'de-housing' the German workforce ... and a change to 'kill the (civilian) workforce' is likley to be resisted on moral grounds ..

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

My guess is that the western allies will use gas.

The use of gas will bite the Germans in the ass though, because they largely relied on horses, whereas the allies didn't.

Would the Brits and Americans really escalate in this scenario though?

Especially since they don't have air superiority yet to take out German Artillery yet.

 

[Post]

1. Hitler was rather anti the use of Gas on the battle field due to his experiences in WW1

Nevertheless it was used extensively in the death chambers, and on a few occasions on the eastern front (Sevastopol and Odessa).

 

[Post]

Would the Brits and Americans really escalate in this scenario though?

Especially since they don't have air superiority yet to take out German Artillery yet.

Probably not immediately, but maybe they will speed up operation Vegetarian (planning of which started in 1942, but wasn't ready to start until 1944 and it wasn't deemed necesary anymore).

Operation Vegetarian: in 1942, the British planned on killing millions of Germans by dropping anthrax onto their pastures

During World War II, virtually all parties considered conducting large-scale operations that would likely result in immense destruction and catastrophic

www.thevintagenews.com

 

[Nathan Bernacki]

Would the Brits and Americans really escalate in this scenario though?

Well, in OTL's 1943, when rumors began spreading that the Germans were planning to use chemical warfare on the Eastern Front, Churchill drew a red line in the sand.

In the event of the Germans using gas on the Russians, my declaration of last year of course stands. We shall retaliate by drenching the German cities with gas on the largest possible scale. We must expect their counter-measures. Is everything in readiness for this contingency both ways? It is quite possible that another warning like I gave last year might check them off at the last minute, but we must be ready to strike and make good any threat we utter with the utmost promptitude and severity

To be fair, this might be Churchill beating his chest without any intention to back it up.

Especially since they don't have air superiority yet to take out German Artillery yet.

The British solved the problem of the German anti-aircraft fire by shifting focus away from industrial targets and towards the tactic of dehousing.

 

[Gannt the chartist]

The 'problem' with mustard gas, is it's just not that effective = in fact the Britihs were expecting the Nazi's to use of gas == everyone was issued with a gas mask ... BUT this is only going to be of use against the WW1 gasses, not the nerve gasses the nazi's are cooking up.... (and the Brits don't know about).
My guess is that the Brits won't bother with mustard gas etc. The high explosive bombs the RAF are dropping meet Harris goal of 'de-housing' the German workforce ... and a change to 'kill the (civilian) workforce' is likley to be resisted on moral grounds ..

Quite. By the end of WW1 gas was used as a delaying/area denial weapon. Use gas forces the enemy to suit up and slows things down so you use it as a counterbattery weapon to force the gunners into masks and to cover approach routes for reinforcements.

British and commonwealth forces late WW1 were also using scented smoke, smell the roses and the enemy has to suit up which degrades their performance but you know its rose scented smoke so dont need to wear your gas gear

Its not a miracle weapon and logistically if you are shipping gas you are not shipping something else and for most of 42 the Germans were struggling with the logs.

For the Allies, best case for Germany is a note via Switzerland reminding Germany that use of chemical weapons invites the use of chemical weapons. Worst Case is a mass gas attack on a German city, German Civilians have no significant gas protection not can they get it due to the rubber shortages.

Especially since they don't have air superiority yet to take out German Artillery yet.

This has nothing to do with air superiority its artillery superiority, better systems betters CB staffs more guns more shells.

 

[marathag]

T this is only going to be of use against the WW1 gasses, not the nerve gasses the nazi's are cooking up.... (and the Brits don't know about).

Nerve gases would kill more Slaves in production and German Soldiers in depot accidents than would be inflicted on the Willie's.
Nerve gases are hard to deploy, and aren't like mustard gas or phosgene, able to be dispersed by shell with some high explosives.
You need proximity fusing, and they didn't have that for tube arty.

 

[mial42]

Most likely? The WAllies keep doing what they were already doing (flattening German industrial targets and cities) and after the war there are a few more war crimes tribunals.

 

[Julian]

I’m unconvinced Germany has the chemical weapons stockpiles to do substantial damage. They were only producing a few thousand tons per year, and it was only from 1943 onward that it really reached industrial scale. In total during the entire war they probably produced less than 30,000 tons of all types of chemical weapons. In comparison the USSR had a prewar stockpile of over 70,000 tons, the US produced 146,000 from 1940-45 alone, etc. Enough to kill 10s of thousands of people and lose 10s of thousands in exchange, but not really a war winner.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

I’m unconvinced Germany has the chemical weapons stockpiles to do substantial damage. They were only producing a few thousand tons per year, and it was only from 1943 onward that it really reached industrial scale. In total during the entire war they probably produced less than 30,000 tons of all types of chemical weapons. In comparison the USSR had a prewar stockpile of over 70,000 tons, the US produced 146,000 from 1940-45 alone, etc. Enough to kill 10s of thousands of people and lose 10s of thousands in exchange, but not really a war winner.

If used properly, it'd be perfect for stopping Soviet offensives, at least for a few days.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

We're the Soviets prepared for chemical warfare?

 

[marathag]

Most likely? The WAllies keep doing what they were already doing (flattening German industrial targets and cities) and after the war there are a few more war crimes tribunals.

And Lend Leasing plenty of Gas Munitions to the USSR

 

[Comte de Dordogne]

2) Through diplomatic back channels, the Germans let the Western Allies know they have no intention of using gas on them.

Big problem in your scenario. The Nazis were not the reasonable type, if they used weapon gas on one side I don't see them stopping there and sparing the allies.
I don't know if it's true but I heard that Hitler never used weapon gas because he was traumatized by it during the Great War.

 

[HelloThere]

Big problem in your scenario. The Nazis were not the reasonable type, if they used weapon gas on one side I don't see them stopping there and sparing the allies.
I don't know if it's true but I heard that Hitler never used weapon gas because he was traumatized by it during the Great War.

That's false, actually. Germany didn't use gas because a) they largely relied on horses and b) gas isn't an "instant-kill" weapon in a relatively fast-paced war without trenches.

 

[M79]

I’m unconvinced Germany has the chemical weapons stockpiles to do substantial damage. They were only producing a few thousand tons per year, and it was only from 1943 onward that it really reached industrial scale. In total during the entire war they probably produced less than 30,000 tons of all types of chemical weapons. In comparison the USSR had a prewar stockpile of over 70,000 tons, the US produced 146,000 from 1940-45 alone, etc. Enough to kill 10s of thousands of people and lose 10s of thousands in exchange, but not really a war winner.

The chemicals in question can kill in such small amounts that a few tens of tons could mean horrible painful death for hundreds of thousands (or more in the wrong dispersal pattern). Worse, at least one of these German nightmare agents may linger to permit downstream exposure to *rescuers and healthcare personnel*. Truly -evil- stuff.

 

[Post]

That's false, actually. Germany didn't use gas because a) they largely relied on horses and b) gas isn't an "instant-kill" weapon in a relatively fast-paced war without trenches.

And, as I mentioned before in this thread, there were in fact a few occasions on the eastern front where they did use chemical weapons.

The Nazis did use chemical weapons in combat on several occasions along the Black Sea, notably in Sevastopol, where they used toxic smoke to force Russian resistance fighters out of caverns below the city, in violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol.[57] The Nazis also used asphyxiating gas in the catacombs of Odessa in November 1941, following their capture of the city, and in late May 1942 during the Battle of the Kerch Peninsula in eastern Crimea.[57] Victor Israelyan, a Soviet ambassador, reported that the latter incident was perpetrated by the Wehrmacht's Chemical Forces and organized by a special detail of SS troops with the help of a field engineer battalion. Chemical Forces General Ochsner reported to German command in June 1942 that a chemical unit had taken part in the battle.[58] After the battle in mid-May 1942, roughly 3,000 Red Army soldiers and Soviet civilians not evacuated by sea were besieged in a series of caves and tunnels in the nearby Adzhimushkay quarry. After holding out for approximately three months, "poison gas was released into the tunnels, killing all but a few score of the Soviet defenders."[59] Thousands of those killed around Adzhimushkay were documented to have been killed by asphyxiation from gas.[58]

In February 1943, German troops stationed in Kuban received a telegram: "Russians should be eventually cleared out of the mountain range with gas."[60] The troops also received two wagons of toxin antidotes.[60]

History of chemical warfare - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org