Germans focus on British Airfields during BoB

So what your saying is that the Germans would have to learn how to competently place spies into the UK to come close to figuring out that the nerve centers for the radar installations were all above ground? I kind of thought at one point that the Germans would have done better going after airfields and radar, but if it depends on their espionage capabilities I see no way for the Germans to change the outcome of the BoB. It is well known how absurdly successful the Allies were at completely dominating the espionage part of the war. Especially when it came to either capturing or silencing the entire spy ring in the UK, and turning it into what I think has to be the largest double-agent network in all of recorded history.

A spy network that hadn't been taken over by the British would help....:)

The Germans did knock out some stations, but either they were brought back online in a few hours, or false signals were broadcast. Giving the impression that even a successful raid (and remember, these raids cost planes) was only a minor nuisance to the British.

Hindsight shows us radar was important, but at the time it was all new and the Germans could only go on what seemed to be hapenning due to their efforts. It didnt help that the Germans didnt have their own equivalent of the system (it was the system that was teh really important thing, more so than the radars themselves), so had nothing to indicate what might happen when they knocked out things.
 
You are right about the German´s assesment of the UK´s radar but let´s assume they bomb the stations with the intention of taking down the masts and suddenly they realize this and that station isn´t tansmitting any more even though the masts still stand: Ohh, seems there is something vital above ground.

Second, the Me 110 fighter bombers would only be used for hit and run raids on the costal radars, the factories would be targeted by actual bombers.

About the S-boat raids. Doing it once or twice would would suffice as the raiders would bring back confirmation that and what vital installations are unprotected.

(1) They did this , with no apparent effect other than a few hours downtime. The only logical conclusion is that it would eb worth an attack on the morning of Sealion.

(2) Using what type of bombing? The towers were too high for easy dive bombing (and got the planes shot down), level bombing isnt that accurate, and again the towers are very difficult to damage. Radar huts can be quickly rebuilt (as was done)

(3) Given the number of RN light craft in the channel EVERY NIGHT, and the number of lookouts and coast watchers an S-boat raid at this point has about as much chance as a chocolate teapot.
 

Markus

Banned
(1) They did this , with no apparent effect other than a few hours downtime. The only logical conclusion is that it would eb worth an attack on the morning of Sealion.

(2) Using what type of bombing? The towers were too high for easy dive bombing (and got the planes shot down), level bombing isnt that accurate, and again the towers are very difficult to damage. Radar huts can be quickly rebuilt (as was done)

(3) Given the number of RN light craft in the channel EVERY NIGHT, and the number of lookouts and coast watchers an S-boat raid at this point has about as much chance as a chocolate teapot.

(1) and (2): The station at Venetor was attacked twice. It was down for 3 and 7 days, not hours. After the second attack a mobile set was brought in to patch the gap but it had a much shoter range. And it wasn´t necessary to bring down the masts as the huts wer above ground. IF the Germans had monitored the emissions of the stations they would have noticed that.

(3): I´m not porposing to send across a division in barges but a few squads in 100 tons S-boats. Which is a secondary operation anyway that has little influence as the sations could be taken out by bombers much easier than the Germans imagined.
 
(1) and (2): The station at Venetor was attacked twice. It was down for 3 and 7 days, not hours. After the second attack a mobile set was brought in to patch the gap but it had a much shoter range. And it wasn´t necessary to bring down the masts as the huts wer above ground. IF the Germans had monitored the emissions of the stations they would have noticed that.

(3): I´m not porposing to send across a division in barges but a few squads in 100 tons S-boats. Which is a secondary operation anyway that has little influence as the sations could be taken out by bombers much easier than the Germans imagined.

But the Germans didnt KNOW it was down...they were transmitting dummy signals. So the LW just assumed that the things were bomb-proof.

Hitlers Armada gives a very good account of just how active the RN was in the channel in this period. I doubt if the Germans could have got a rubber dingy ashore without it being noticed.....
 
(1) and (2): The station at Venetor was attacked twice.


Wow... one station bombed all of two times... That must have been a maximum effort on the part of the Luftwaffe, right?

And it was knocked out for all of a week too... Although the British were able to plug the gap with a shorter ranged mobile unit and still transmit dummy signals sufficient enough to give the impression the station was still operating.

IF the Germans had monitored the emissions of the stations they would have noticed that.

They were and they had been since before the war even began. Graf Zeppelin flew at least two ELINT missions up the North Sea and along the UK's east coast in August of 1939 until the UK let it be known through diplomatic channels she'd be shot down if she kept it up.

(3): I´m not porposing to send across a division in barges but a few squads in 100 tons S-boats.

It's not as easy as you'd like to imagine. How many of the stations are within an hour's march of the coast? A four hour march? A half-day's march? After landing in the dark, how quickly could a squad find it's way across unfamiliar terrain to a target miles away with little more aid than recon photos? And how quickly could they get away?

Either consciously or subconsciously everyone keeps thinking of the Bruneval raid as a comparison when it's nothing of the sort. The Bruneval raiders had months to prepare and train, had months of aerial photos to study, had month of recon performed by Resistance fighters, were dropped on the target by parachute, had Resistance fighters as guides once they landed, and planned on withdrawing by sea yet the operation still nearly failed when the boats assigned to pick them up ran into a German destroyer escorting a coastal convoy.

There are huge difficulties at work here, difficulties I'm sure the German commanders on the spot were much more aware of than we are. What's more, while the Germans most definitely know about radar, they aren't yet aware of it's huge role. Sending out dozens of suicide parties on missions with a low probability of short term success isn't a good idea even if you're aware of radar's importance.
 

Cook

Banned
Given the number of RN light craft in the channel EVERY NIGHT, and the number of lookouts and coast watchers an S-boat raid at this point has about as much chance as a chocolate teapot.

I’m surprised the dragon had to point that out.

England was expecting an invasion at any moment and was on a hair trigger to repel landings on the south-east coast.
 
I’m surprised the dragon had to point that out.



He hasn't been the only one either. From Post #38:
While we in 2010 know better, Britain in 1940 was on a hair trigger to spot the beginning of any invasion.

... was on a hair trigger to repel landings on the south-east coast.

And some of us have even used the same phrases when reminding those who need reminding too. ;)
 
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Cook

Banned
And some of us have even used the same phrases when reminding those who need reminding too. ;)


D’oh, That’ll learn me to skim read won’t it!

In my defence it is Monday morning here and I’m operating on half batteries. (Now someone’ll say “that’s half more than usual”)
:p
 
D’oh, That’ll learn me to skim read won’t it!

In my defence it is Monday morning here and I’m operating on half batteries. (Now someone’ll say “that’s half more than usual”)
:p

You need more coffee :)
Coffee is your friend :) :)
 
It's not as easy as you'd like to imagine. How many of the stations are within an hour's march of the coast? A four hour march? A half-day's march? After landing in the dark, how quickly could a squad find it's way across unfamiliar terrain to a target miles away with little more aid than recon photos? And how quickly could they get away?

Ventnor is on the sout coast of the Isle of Wight, if I remember well, you have a beach but also a lot of high cliffs.

I did a lot of sailing on this coast, it is very dangerous even for small boats...

Most of the Island of Wight and the south coast of England are cliffs coasts.... And for safety, you generally sailed far from the coast... Sailing and navigation on the Channel is an activity rather dangerous even in peace time, simply because of the weather, the currents and the hazards of the coast.

I don't think german Kriegmarine had in summer 1940 alot of specialists of the Channel navigation. And German army lacked something as commando units and I don't remember intra-service cooperation to be very good in german army...

British began to think about commando units and to train for this kind of operations after Dunkirk and they have a lot of time before real operations...
 
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For every bomb that falls on Berlin...

Once those infamous words were uttered, the RAF just had to raid Berlin with a modest bomb-load to force the Luftwaffe to switch their focus from air-fields to cities...

If the *first* nuisance raid on Berlin didn't force the issue, a few more would surely do the trick...
 
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