Germanic Settlement Continues West?

What geopolitical conditions would facilitate the continued germanic settlement west. The linguistic frontier between germanic and romance languages moved very far west during the post-Roman period, but then stabilized during the middle ages and was eventually even pushed back slightly in modern times. In the east however, the linguistic and ethnic frontier continued to expand throughout the middle ages and into modern times (before also being rapidly pushed back in the post-war settlements and population movements).
So, with a POD of 700 AD, what conditions will lead to continued germanic settlement in western europe, specifically modern France/Gaul?
Scipio
 
I think you would need to rephrase the question as "how to make Germanic languages more widespread", as Germanic people settled about as far west as possible for Europeans to achieve-the Vandals conquered what is now Morocco.

As for making the language change, one potential possibility is to have Germanic groups like the Franks have more contempt for Roman culture, so they are less likely to adopt a language based on Latin. The resulting language would be much more Germanic.
 
The important factors that stopped the germanic languages from spreading further west are:

a - the degree of romanization of the local population (very high in Gaul after 450 years of Roman occupation with no direct barbarian borders)

b - the relative population density. 300.000 to at best 500.000 Franks will hardly be able to force their language on the 3 to 5 million Galloromans

c - the invaders had to rely on the local latin-speaking bureaucracy to administer to conquered territory.

After 2 or 3 generations of living in a roman or romanized territory and intermarriage with the local population the germanic invaders were heavily romanized themselves, it happened to the Vandals in Carthage, the Visigoths in Spain, the Ostrogoths and later Lombards in Italy and the Franks and a couple of centuries later the Normans in Gaul / France.
 
It's really hard. The Germanic tribes pretty much wanted to inherit the Roman system with themselves on the top. They were bound to be assimilated. Only in Britannia did Latin die out but it never had much of a presence outside the cities in the southeast which were the first to be conquered by the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians.
 
It's really hard. The Germanic tribes pretty much wanted to inherit the Roman system with themselves on the top. They were bound to be assimilated.


Prettymuch, at least this applies for the tribes/areas which had a large local Latin population (in particular Gaul and Hispania).

Only in Britannia did Latin die out but it never had much of a presence outside the cities in the southeast which were the first to be conquered by the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians.

Not quite. Latin also died out in North Africa, but obviously that only happened way later due to the Umayyad conquest, and not because of the Vandals.
 
Prettymuch, at least this applies for the tribes/areas which had a large local Latin population (in particular Gaul and Hispania).

Not quite. Latin also died out in North Africa, but obviously that only happened way later due to the Umayyad conquest, and not because of the Vandals.

I forgot who it was but it was but Roman North Africa wasn't dominated by Latin speakers. There was still a large amount of people who continued to speak in Punic right until the Arab conquests, like St. Augustine.
 
I forgot who it was but it was but Roman North Africa wasn't dominated by Latin speakers. There was still a large amount of people who continued to speak in Punic right until the Arab conquests, like St. Augustine.

Well yes, a late form of Punic was continued to be spoken right up to the Arab conquest (perhaps even into the early Islamic period?), but still a local variant of Vulgar Latin existed. It's clear that Latin was the main language of the Vandal Kingdom.
 
Well yes, a late form of Punic was continued to be spoken right up to the Arab conquest (perhaps even into the early Islamic period?), but still a local variant of Vulgar Latin existed. It's clear that Latin was the main language of the Vandal Kingdom.

Oh I don't deny that mate. I do hear from the Genocide that a local variant of Latin managed to survive the Islamic conquests in a few isolated eras for a while longer. The Normans who ruled Sicily and southern Italy encountered them.
 
Ok, allow me to rephrase my question then:
What geopolitical condition would allow the germanic language frontier to continue to expand west during the middle ages, in a similar fashion to how it did in the east during the middle ages and early modern period?
This was what I was trying to ask originally, but I guess I was unclear.
Scipio
 
I think what is needed would be a fragmented *France. Have a Kingdom of Flanders dominating the north down to Paris and you would increase the chances of the Romance frontier slipping southwest.
 
It's really hard. The Germanic tribes pretty much wanted to inherit the Roman system with themselves on the top. They were bound to be assimilated. Only in Britannia did Latin die out but it never had much of a presence outside the cities in the southeast which were the first to be conquered by the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians.

All quite true. Here is more for anyone:
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/westeurope/AngloSaxon.html

Specifically: "... the Caledonians began to attack them. Britons requested that the roman government provide military aid, but it never arrived. Faced with no other options, the Britons turned to the Anglos and Saxons of Germany and the Jutes of Denmark for assistance. After the defeat of the Caledonians, the Jutes were given the Isle of Thanet. Jutes began spreading into Kent, and as a result, were defeated by the Britons who lost Kent once again to the Jutes around AD 488."

No Caledonians nearby for most Western Europe areas, so the only power that makes much sense for this scenario is one of the many Asian horse armies. Problem is not only are "The Germanic peoples of the fifth century were very destructive and barbaric in nature. They preferred to kill their enemies although they did keep some as slaves" (which means the Asians would have to be far more terrible to even consider Germanics as potential allies) but also Germanic tribes are situated in a keystone area between the Asians and Western Europe.

Which logically follows that Germans are going to be scattered and made to suffer, too. Or maybe part go into exile (the potential allies) and all the rest go into the army of these Asians (which did happen in the case of Attilla), and then have the situation mutate in some way so most or enough of the Germans come on top.

As others have said, a difficult situation with a great many variables. Too dicey for my blood. Good luck in all.
 
These are interesting ideas, but how would the linguistic frontier develop in a scenario where Francia (the Frankish state) stays united. Instead of being divided into eventually two separate states (France and the HRE/Germany), what if Austrasia and Neustria had remained part of the same state. Now, if this TL would be anything like ours, this Frankish state wouldn't have any power until the 12th or 13th centuries, but it could still change things by having continued Frankish settlement of northern Gaul.
The reason I ask this question is because it always struck me as strange that the Germanic linguistic frontier saw a dramatic shift east during the middle ages, but none west.
Scipio
 
These are interesting ideas, but how would the linguistic frontier develop in a scenario where Francia (the Frankish state) stays united. Instead of being divided into eventually two separate states (France and the HRE/Germany), what if Austrasia and Neustria had remained part of the same state. Now, if this TL would be anything like ours, this Frankish state wouldn't have any power until the 12th or 13th centuries, but it could still change things by having continued Frankish settlement of northern Gaul.
The reason I ask this question is because it always struck me as strange that the Germanic linguistic frontier saw a dramatic shift east during the middle ages, but none west.
Scipio

In that case if we keep Aquitaine, Burgundy, and Lombardy from falling to or reattaching to Francia then Francia will still be largely ruled from Aachen. Keeping the Frankish capital on the Germanic side of the frontier should stop the frontier shifting.

The westward shift isn't actually that strange if you think in terms of population and political power projection - there's a reason French became the diplomatic language ;)
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Actually, the frontier did shift east in the west, as flemish used to be spoken in Artois, and much of Lorraine was germanized, not just the Metz area.
 

Deleted member 1487

Ironically, it might be to have the Germanic tribes do worse. Let Spain hold out and the Visigoths and their banner tribes settle in France (Aquantine) with the Vandals settling in the Marsailles area and have the Franks come in and conquer them all. Spain remains Roman, as does North Africa and the Germanics remain bottled up in Italy and France. More Germanic tribes=more linguistic influence on locals.
 
Ironically, it might be to have the Germanic tribes do worse. Let Spain hold out and the Visigoths and their banner tribes settle in France (Aquantine) with the Vandals settling in the Marsailles area and have the Franks come in and conquer them all. Spain remains Roman, as does North Africa and the Germanics remain bottled up in Italy and France. More Germanic tribes=more linguistic influence on locals.

That's really a good idea.

Besides that, a population boom is indeed your best chance. Maybe add an epidemic in the Roman cities to it.

An idea I once read was to delay the loss of Germania Magna from the Romans. Let the Romans rule over Germania for a generation or two, allowing the Germanic tribes to learn some new agricultural technologies and the like, and then have a rebellion there destroying Roman pressure. The improved technological base should allow the Germanic tribes to become more populous, and the "higher" cultural level may make assimilation to Gallo-Romans less likely.
 
You beat me to it. I was going to suggest that the Germanics were severely over-extended, hence spread too thinly. If their territorial gains are less, they would be less over-extended to an equal degree. If they only conquer half of Gallia and none of Hispania or Italia, their population density in what they do conquer might be sufficient to allow their language to eventually become the common tongue of the land.
 
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