Germanic Normandy would it have any effect?

[Valdemar II]

If Normandy ended up Germanic speaking would it have any effect on medieval history, or would we just see history unfold like in OTL just with some different languages?

If we see it from a purely linguistic POW, the language the Normans would speak would be old Danish with some extended French vocabulary. As such if they conquer England, they would speak a rather similar language and it would likely push Englisc toward becoming a Scandinavian language.

But beside that, would it result in the Normans behave in different ways, or would we just see England go down the same route as OTL?

 

[Turquoise Blue]

If Normandy ended up Germanic speaking would it have any effect on medieval history, or would we just see history unfold like in OTL just with some different languages?

If we see it from a purely linguistic POW, the language the Normans would speak would be old Danish with some extended French vocabulary. As such if they conquer England, they would speak a rather similar language and it would likely push Englisc toward becoming a Scandinavian language.

But beside that, would it result in the Normans behave in different ways, or would we just see England go down the same route as OTL?

Butterflies would mean no England or France as we know them.

 

[Valdemar II]

Butterflies would mean no England or France as we know them.

No I have heard of butterflies d'øøøh

So let's fucking ignore butterflies and speak seriously about the effect of languages on history.

 

[Tyr]

Butterflies would mean no England or France as we know them.

The establishment of Normandy comes quite a while after the foundation of England and France


I'd imagine if they hold onto their language other aspects of culture would also remain a bit more scandinavian and result in them being rather apart from France.
Trouble is...its hard to see this happening. Bring in a tonne of settlers then maybe, but as it is the Normans just established themselves as rulers as the Normans later did in England.

 

[Valdemar II]

The establishment of Normandy comes quite a while after the foundation of England and France


I'd imagine if they hold onto their language other aspects of culture would also remain a bit more scandinavian and result in them being rather apart from France.
Trouble is...its hard to see this happening. Bring in a tonne of settlers then maybe, but as it is the Normans just established themselves as rulers as the Normans later did in England.

Significant part of coastal Normandy are dominated by villages with names of Scandinavian origin. There was a large infusion of settlers on all steps of the social ladder, so a small push of settlers or a second wave* could have been enough.

*in the early reign of Richard I, when Harald Bluetooth helped him against the French king (Louis IV), could be a good POD for that.

 

[kasumigenx]

Just prevent the dutch language in French Flanders, Artois, Picardy and parts of Normandy from being minoritized or being extinct and make it dominate that area.

 

[Faeelin]

Hrm.... it's hard to say. Really we're asking how important was language to the view of the French kingdom, no? If that is so, then we have a fair idea from OTL. Brittany, Languedoc, etc. all ended up French in the end.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

You'll need more Norse settlers and you might want them to segregate themselves from the Romance speaking populations.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

Normandy was "founded" in 911 when the West Frankish (French) king Charles was forced to recognize the viking settlement at the mouth of the Seine. Over the next century, the Normans gradually started to speak a romance dialect, so that by the time they conquered England they spoke a langue d'oil (basically a dialect of northern French). This was not forced upon, so, as previously stated, if you can find a way to stop the conversion to a Romance dialect, through more settlement and or less mixing with the preexisting population, Norman could stick as a Germanic language. But I think for this to happen, you need an earlier POD. And, with an earlier POD, there is no way to assure Viking settlement in what became normandy. It is hard to imagine West Frankish kings having an less power during this time than they did otl, and even with a post-911 collapse of the West Frankish Kingdom, the Viking settlers would still probably adopt a Romance language because the original population would still be there.
I am by no means an expert on the ethnolinguistic history of Normandy, these are just my thoughts based on the books I have read and am reading about medieval France.
Scipio

 

[kasumigenx]

Normandy was "founded" in 911 when the West Frankish (French) king Charles was forced to recognize the viking settlement at the mouth of the Seine. Over the next century, the Normans gradually started to speak a romance dialect, so that by the time they conquered England they spoke a langue d'oil (basically a dialect of northern French). This was not forced upon, so, as previously stated, if you can find a way to stop the conversion to a Romance dialect, through more settlement and or less mixing with the preexisting population, Norman could stick as a Germanic language. But I think for this to happen, you need an earlier POD. And, with an earlier POD, there is no way to assure Viking settlement in what became normandy. It is hard to imagine West Frankish kings having an less power during this time than they did otl, and even with a post-911 collapse of the West Frankish Kingdom, the Viking settlers would still probably adopt a Romance language because the original population would still be there.
I am by no means an expert on the ethnolinguistic history of Normandy, these are just my thoughts based on the books I have read and am reading about medieval France.
Scipio

Simple, just make the Dutch of Eastern Normandy and Picardy not extinct and merge with the vikings the question is how.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

Here are my thoughts:
-Continue the trends of the language frontier between Germanic and Romance languages over the past few centuries. The frontier had moved west from the Rhine into what is now Picardy, Alsace (still some German spoken there today) and Lorraine. If this can continue instead of being reversed so that Germanic languages continue their western advance, it will be easier for them to fuse with the Viking languages.
-If the Normans continue to conquer east along the coast, they will come into contact with the Frankish languages mentioned above. Perhaps instead of the otl Norman Conquest, they conquer parts of the Low Countries.
People with more in-depth knowledge about this subject should way in, I am just at the tip of the iceberg in terms of medieval european history.
Scipio

 

[The Professor]

Here are my thoughts:
-Continue the trends of the language frontier between Germanic and Romance languages over the past few centuries. The frontier had moved west from the Rhine into what is now Picardy, Alsace (still some German spoken there today) and Lorraine. If this can continue instead of being reversed so that Germanic languages continue their western advance, it will be easier for them to fuse with the Viking languages.
-If the Normans continue to conquer east along the coast, they will come into contact with the Frankish languages mentioned above. Perhaps instead of the otl Norman Conquest, they conquer parts of the Low Countries.
People with more in-depth knowledge about this subject should way in, I am just at the tip of the iceberg in terms of medieval european history.
Scipio

A way to do this would be to alter the East-(Middle)-West Francia divisions. Perhaps Charles the Younger survives and there's an initial North/Old Francia Kingdom for a while.
Combine this with a stronger Viking presence (and thus settlement) along the coast and you could see surviving Viking vassal dukedoms from Normandy to Holland.

Even if one of these *Norman Duchies is Germanic speaking and conquers England similar to OTL it still won't make English a Scandinavian language anymore than the OTL Normans made English a Romance language.
What we will see is a continuation of the language changes that began under the Danish settlement [1] - ie we end up with Scandinavian influenced Middle English instead of Franco-Norman influenced Middle English.

[1] That is the reduction of noun declension and verb conjugation

 

[Errnge]

why not just have more norsemen go to Normandy, where it is warm and nice, instead of Iceland and Greenland. Then you have a much larger Scandinavian presence in Normandy, possibly with some Flemish intermingling.

We might see some interesting affect in Brittany: they could either retain independence from the French, or they could be absorbed into Norman domain. I do believe it was because of viking invasions of Brittany that it fell and was defeated by the French.

Also, England would end up much much more Germanic, wether a Norman invasion occurs or not. The simple fact that large numbers of French speaking nobles is enough to detirmine this. English (Anglisk or Angliskur) could end up with a lot more Scandinavian influence if Norwegian and Danish kings continue to meddle in Britain. Who knows, TTL Normans might be game too.

France would possibly become much less centralized around Paris, being so close to a potentially hostile neighbor. I think a Balkanization of Gaul is more than likely in this scenario given the dialectal differences already in place and now heightened by another more distinct group to the north.

 

[VictorLaszlo]

More Norsemen will not stop romanization, only more Norsewomen will. In OTL, the overwhelmingly male invaders took local women who raised their children in the local romance dialect. 2 generations later only the older still spoke Norse in everyday life, their grandchildren more often than not didn't even understand it anymore.

 

[Errnge]

More Norsemen will not stop romanization, only more Norsewomen will. In OTL, the overwhelmingly male invaders took local women who raised their children in the local romance dialect. 2 generations later only the older still spoke Norse in everyday life, their grandchildren more often than not didn't even understand it anymore.

i agree to a point, but not completely. if this were completely true, icelandic would be more closely related to gaelic