I'm aware that many German firearms continued to be used after World War 2, such as the StG 44. But what about larger equipment? Were there any conflicts after the end of the Third Reich that saw the use of their more advanced equipment (EG Aircraft, Vehicles/Armor)? If not, are there any theoretical situations that could have?
German WWII Equipment post-war?
- Thread starter Shtudmuffin
- Start date
I believe quite a few Panthers were supplied to Romania by the Soviets. The Czechs made re-engined Bf-109s (S-199s) and sold them to Israel, and they also manufactured a small number of Me-262's for their own use. France made short term use of several types of German aircraft as the Armee de l'Air was reconstituted (Fw-190's, Ju-188's, Fi-156's, etc). I believe the Fi-156, in fact, was copied and produced by several nations in the post war years. Spain, of course continued to manufacture progressively modernized versions of the Bf-109 into the 1960's, and also maintained a fleet of Merlin-engined He-111's well past their use-by date. Ju-52s were also used by a number of nations after the war. I also believe the USSR, Poland, and others made use of a few German submarines and light surface units (DDs) into the 1950's.
Probably the only post-war conflicts that saw significant use of major German equipment was the 1948 Arab Israeli war (the afore mentioned S-199s)
Probably the only post-war conflicts that saw significant use of major German equipment was the 1948 Arab Israeli war (the afore mentioned S-199s)
German small arms - Mp40s, K98s and MG42s - were all used by the Israelis. The Soviets supplied many of these Weapons to its clients, including Cuba and Vietnam. The STG44 was used (among other ex-German weapons) by Yugoslavia until the 1980's. Lebanon still issues it. The MP40 was used by the Norwegian Home Guard until the 1990's.
Quite a few Panzer IV's were captured by the Soviets and later given to Syria. They saw action in the 1967 War with Israel in the Golan Heights. Many still remain there. The Bulgarians also used old Panzer IV's and STUG III's as gun emplacements along the border with Turkey until the end of the Cold War. Finland had considerable amount of German equipment after the war, again including Panzer IV's. The Czechs also reused and built new halftracks.
The Israelis bought Czech produced Me109's (Avia-S99) and used them in the War of Independence and Suez Crisis. Spain also used German supplied/designed equipment in North Africa. France operated about 50 Panzer V's (Panthers) until around 1950.
Several nations, including France, Britain and Norway actively used former German U-Boats in a variety of roles ranging from research to operational use. Britain also used German E-Boats post war to deploy agents into the Soviet Baltic states and Balkans.
Russell
Quite a few Panzer IV's were captured by the Soviets and later given to Syria. They saw action in the 1967 War with Israel in the Golan Heights. Many still remain there. The Bulgarians also used old Panzer IV's and STUG III's as gun emplacements along the border with Turkey until the end of the Cold War. Finland had considerable amount of German equipment after the war, again including Panzer IV's. The Czechs also reused and built new halftracks.
The Israelis bought Czech produced Me109's (Avia-S99) and used them in the War of Independence and Suez Crisis. Spain also used German supplied/designed equipment in North Africa. France operated about 50 Panzer V's (Panthers) until around 1950.
Several nations, including France, Britain and Norway actively used former German U-Boats in a variety of roles ranging from research to operational use. Britain also used German E-Boats post war to deploy agents into the Soviet Baltic states and Balkans.
Russell
The French and I beleive thr Czechs continued producing and using the Fiesler Storch post war and the early Russian Jets were powered by copied German engines. Also the US copied the V1 and it went into service as the Loon. The BSA Bantam was also a direct copy of a German motorbike.
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Many of the smaller Kriegsmarine ships was taken over and used by other nations after the war. (http://uboat.net/fates/after-dl.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine#Post-war_division).
Most larger vessels was lost in the war or sunk as targets (Prinz Eugen & Graf Zeppelin) after but the cruiser Nürnberg became the flagship of the Soviet Northern Baltic Fleet, and served until 1959.
Most larger vessels was lost in the war or sunk as targets (Prinz Eugen & Graf Zeppelin) after but the cruiser Nürnberg became the flagship of the Soviet Northern Baltic Fleet, and served until 1959.
The vast bulk of the HK line (G3, G36, MP5's, etc) can be traced directly back to the closing days of WWII.
The G3 rifle itself is VERY widely used even today (still one of the best battle rifles out there), and was based on the MG42's roller-delayed blowback system (MG42 => StG45 => G3).
Some say the G3 came out of Spain, but the work there was done by Ludwig Vorgrimler, who left Germany for Spain following the war. So, assuming the Germans are able to continue their weapons program, Vorgrimler would have stayed... and the designs would have been 100% German.
The G3 rifle itself is VERY widely used even today (still one of the best battle rifles out there), and was based on the MG42's roller-delayed blowback system (MG42 => StG45 => G3).
Some say the G3 came out of Spain, but the work there was done by Ludwig Vorgrimler, who left Germany for Spain following the war. So, assuming the Germans are able to continue their weapons program, Vorgrimler would have stayed... and the designs would have been 100% German.
IIRC, the French based one of their tank guns on a German prototype for one that should've gone into a new version of the Panther tank.
-, but it wasn't related much to the G36, which was based on AR-18 technology. But yeah, it's originally a WW2-ish design that led to a huge family of weapons, including also the HK33 assault rifle and the HK53 compact assault rifle, one of which (G41) was even at one point a potential Bundeswehr and Italian Army standard assault rifle in the late 80s. If it had been chosen (ie. that pesky Gorbachev hadn't ended the Cold War), it could've been in main-line NATO service even to this day.
You're spot on with the G3 and its development - though you omitted the CETME rifle, when the design went to Spain
-, but it wasn't related much to the G36, which was based on AR-18 technology. But yeah, it's originally a WW2-ish design that led to a huge family of weapons, including also the HK33 assault rifle and the HK53 compact assault rifle, one of which (G41) was even at one point a potential Bundeswehr and Italian Army standard assault rifle in the late 80s. If it had been chosen (ie. that pesky Gorbachev hadn't ended the Cold War), it could've been in main-line NATO service even to this day.
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Bugger, I blew that one on the G36. I knew it was gas operated...Your spot on with the G3 and its development - though you omitted the CETME rifle, when the design went to Spain
Of course, there's also the PSG-1, the MG3... as you mentioned, a whole family came out of there.
I left out the CETME rifle as it was never really widely adopted... but then again, the StG45 was only experimental itself...
Anyway...
the point is: a great number of superb small arms came out of it.
And given Germany's (likely) position, we might have seen the FN-FAL come out as well. (albeit in the 7.92X33 Kurz). But then again, Fabrique Nationale would likely have simply ceased to exist long before then...
Ok, so it's clear that some German tanks and planes and plenty of small arms saw use outside of WWII. May I ask, though, how Israel received German arms?
Would it have been possible for the Czechs, in a certain scenario, sell the more advanced German equipment (Tiger/Panther tanks, Me-262s) to the Israelis? Also, why didn't the major European powers sell equipment to Israel?
Possibly. It might have been cheaper than what they could get from the US. Then again, the US had no problem unloading war surplus for dirt cheap as well... And given the logistical/maintenance nightmare that were late war German tanks, I wonder why they would have gone that route given the option.
And I suppose it depends on the scenario. If Germany continues as a military goods-producing nation, it's also likely there wouldn't have been any Israel to sell too...
To you first question the answer is "yes", if they had enough and wanted to part with them. I'm only familiar with the Me-262 and they only had enough engines and unfinished airframes to build a handful. In 1945-47, the Me-262 was still hot stuff. You wouldn't want to sell any.
Regarding the second question my answer is "whaaaaa?". Until the after the 1973 war, France and Britain were the major suppliers of equipment to Israel. Mirages and Centurians out the wazoo! Only after the Europeans got a renewed sense of anti-semitism (sorry my pro-Israel prejudice coming out) after the 1973 war and the oil embargo did the US become the major arms supplier to Israel.
Maybe the Tigers would be bad enough logistically that they would sell for even lower than the other tanks? Also, Germany could likely continue as a military equipment producer/exporter if Hitler could be successfully assassinated and his successors sign an armistice. Since a portion of his followers weren't entirely hateful (EG Erwin Rommel, though I could be wrong) they would simply deport the Jews to Palestine as opposed to murdering them. Although, this could create a difficult situation with the British.
Hmm, this premise sounds kind of interesting. I might just make a timeline from it
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