German WWII Differences

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by ZodiacBeast, Dec 18, 2018.

  1. ZodiacBeast Well-Known Member

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    How would WWII be different if -
    1. Hitler and the Nazis weren't drugged up most of the time
    2. No Holocaust, so the resources used for this tragedy aren't tied up
    3. Hitler doesn't attack Russia (they come to a truce, maybe?)
    How would this drastically different Germany fare during WWII, assuming all other factors remain the same?
     
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  2. Shadow Master Alternate Technologies Fan Banned

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    You'll have to be a bit more specific, as I don't know how to achieve #2 and #3. For #1, I would post a link to the good herr doctor "Cocaine in the Eye drops" Guy, and go from there.
     
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  3. Mark E. Well-Known Member

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    This would be the same as a thread that says "what if Hitler died of a stroke in mid-1933" or the like. The Third Reich moves to undo the hardships caused by Versailles, especially some borders.
     
  4. Hammerbolt Well-Known Member

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    You're asking for "Hitler & Co" to be sane. So... no...
     
  5. ZodiacBeast Well-Known Member

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    So...no ALTERNATE history?
     
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  6. Hammerbolt Well-Known Member

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    Not really, no. Afaik (might be wrong?) the whole "nazis drugged" thing only started during the war, and were mostly combat-related drugs, so no big efect. As for the rest, it goes completely against some of the basis of nazi beliefs: hate if jews and hate of slavs/comunists. So... again, you'd need a sane Hitler, which would probably mean he wouldn't even achieve power.
     
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  7. Lafayette_ Well-Known Member

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    Absolute hatred of Bolshevism and Judaism were the key tenets of National Socialism, so, #2 and #3 are almost impossible to avoid. Where would Germany perform Lebensraum, an idea that’s been floating around fanatically since the early 20th century, if not in Russia? What would happen to the Jewish, which where blamed as culprits for stabbing Germany in the back in November 1918?

    In regards to #1: if some of the top echelon weren’t on drugs, you’d perhaps get different results in some battles during the war, but I reckon that’s it. Hitler is still Hitler, Göring is still Göring – on a macro scale, their military leadership will still lead to failure to knock Great Britain out of the war and the annihilation of whole armies in the east.
     
  8. RodentRevolution Chewer of Wires Banned

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    Part of the problem with 2 and 3 is that the Nazis were perennially spendthrift, they needed to loot Jewish holdings and later they needed to loot entire countries to pay for their ambitions. They also could not afford to pay the Soviets for the resources they were reliant upon and expected to just be able to loot them instead. It was not just evil ideology (though that has been addressed above) but economic incompetence driving these decisions.
     
  9. Mark E. Well-Known Member

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    I think the consensus is that it would be pretty much impossible to re-cast Hitler into a kinder, gentler person. But with Hitler out of the picture soon enough, it might be possible to re-cast the Nazi party. Anti-Semitism does not mean genocide. Look at Henry Ford. Hatred of Bolshevism doesn't necessarily create a mission to ransack Moscow.
     
  10. Questerr Well-Known Member

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    No Holocaust means no Nazis means an entirely different Germany.

    This is the common Wehraboo misconception. You can’t divorce Nazi Germany from its genocidal actions against Jews and other racial and religious minorities. Their oppression/destruction were at the core of the ideology.
     
  11. Questerr Well-Known Member

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    Depends on who replaces him. A Nazi Germany led by Hess or Goring is going to be very different than one led by Goebbels of Himmler.
     
  12. ZodiacBeast Well-Known Member

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    I made a mistake by saying "Nazis" instead of "who would have power in a situation in which these points didn't happen".
     
  13. Hammerbolt Well-Known Member

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    If you write a book saying you love milk & cookies and how evil waffles are, get to power screaming about milk & cookies and how evil waffles are and start making milk & cookies... no one expects you to then suddenly switch to waffles and fruit juice...
     
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  14. ZodiacBeast Well-Known Member

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    ...ok?
    I just want a competent Germany with no Nazis, thus no purges, and the intelligence not to attack Russia, at least as badly as in the original reality.
    I'm sure there are good timelines somewhere, can somebody point me to one please?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  15. Hammerbolt Well-Known Member

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    Then you don't get WWII.
     
  16. PSL Information not passed on is lost.

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    Its easy to do, just get ride of Hitler. Germany was already rearming to fight another 2 front war from the late 1920s on. Based on 1920 Poland /Russia conflict , it was only a matter of time . As Groner stressed in 1928 Germanys neighbours could not afford to sit by and just let her rearm . Groner also warned Germany must have 'a reasonable chance of winning the wider European war' before any military is undertaken.

    The main thrust of the Groner/Schacht/Beck idea was to establish 15 year three phase plan to rebuild German economy / resource plus military based on a pan European economy , that could easily become an anti Stalinist alliance. Stalinist war-games in 1940 assumed a German lead pan European attack on Russia.
     
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  17. Maeglin Lómion

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    Yep. The sort of German regime that would win the Second World War would not get involved in a Second World War to start with.
     
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  18. Theoretical_TJ Well-Known Member

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    Except against Stalin. That still could/would happen.
     
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  19. PSL Information not passed on is lost.

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    It would be a different WW-II , limited to European war with a lot of political maneuvering.

    Sorry no 'anti Nazi just war' to hate & vilify for ever.
     
  20. thorr97 Banned

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    There were plenty of militant ultra-nationalist groups in Germany after World War One. There were plenty of socialist groups in Germany after World War One. There were plenty of anti-Semitic groups in Germany after World War One. The National Socialist German Workers Party was about the only one to combine all of those elements into one cohesive (more or less) whole. It's what distinguished the NSDAP from the other parties running around Wiemar Germany at the time. And what really took it over the top was Hitler's charisma and his fervent Antisemitism.

    Without that last bit the NSDAP might well have just remained among the "also rans" of the many different political parties in Germany that never came close to having actual power and were, eventually lost into obscurity. A "saner" Hitler wouldn't have had the charisma to have pulled the NSDAP into the power it eventually had. He'd have been out competed by some other more hate filled and bigoted fanatic.

    There's numerous alt-hist tales here on this discussion board that have explored this very point.