German victory in the Battle of Britain

Since when? http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Rolls-Royce_Engines:_Peregrine-

Furthermore; .

Fastmongrel, where were you getting that idea from? Because it doesn't seem, to be actually so.

It says so on Graces Guide, which you provided. The Peregrine is 80% of the Merlin. It seems obvious with the lack of applications that the Peregrine was an unwanted and unneeded engine, and since the Whirlwind was developed to escort day bombers for a force that didn't operate bombers by day, the Whirlwind too was unwanted and unneeded. Handed Peregrines, with both rotational directions by gearing, were developed for the Whirlwind, but it seems it was too much trouble to implement until it made a return on the Merlin 130s which powered the DH Hornet. Production Whirlys didn't get handed props. By 1941, the Whirly/Peregrine, undeveloped, had lost its performance edge.
 
In what respect, because they are no more alike than children of different parents- the only commonalty they have is they were made by the same company and some of the same people worked on them.

The Peregrine was very little to do with the Merlin, technically, except that they may both have been rattling around the inside of the same heads at the same time.

You're citing a source that simply does not contain that information. Eighty percent? How, exactly? Might as well claim that a Nakajima Sakae 12 is eighty percent of a Wright R-1830. Does not follow from the source.
 
There is one case in WW2 of a decisive victory in an air campaign. the USAAF led operation Pointblanck archived its aims of defeating the LW in the spring of 1944 therefore fulfilling one of the conditions for Overlord. (The other were no more than 12 German mobile divisions on the west and no more than 15 German divisions being able to deploy to the west within 60 days, the Soviets took care of those).
A German Pointblanck requires a number of factors. Better bombers, a longer ranged fighter, etc.

Creating a POD is virtually impossible because the one big surprise of WW2 was France falling in 1940. Nobody in Germany could foresee the conditions of August 1940 early enough to do anything differently.
Germany in the 1930 planned for the major war scenarios. A war with the USSR within the context of an alliance with Poland (and eventually other countries) or a war with France. Both cases required the army to be strengthened and the LW to prepare to support a land campaign. The Bf109 was designed as a light inexpensive fighter to dominate the battlefield air space. (A 1930s F16, not an F15)
 
There is one case in WW2 of a decisive victory in an air campaign. the USAAF led operation Pointblanck archived its aims of defeating the LW in the spring of 1944 therefore fulfilling one of the conditions for Overlord. (The other were no more than 12 German mobile divisions on the west and no more than 15 German divisions being able to deploy to the west within 60 days, the Soviets took care of those).
A German Pointblanck requires a number of factors. Better bombers, a longer ranged fighter, etc.

Creating a POD is virtually impossible because the one big surprise of WW2 was France falling in 1940. Nobody in Germany could foresee the conditions of August 1940 early enough to do anything differently.
Germany in the 1930 planned for the major war scenarios. A war with the USSR within the context of an alliance with Poland (and eventually other countries) or a war with France. Both cases required the army to be strengthened and the LW to prepare to support a land campaign. The Bf109 was designed as a light inexpensive fighter to dominate the battlefield air space. (A 1930s F16, not an F15)

the twin campaigns against the Japanese Army Air Force in New Guinea and the Japanese Naval Air Force in Rabual were also very decisive, as of course was the twin results of the Philippine Sea and the Raid on Formosa

Between the four of the, the Japanese were reduced to Kamikaze tactics in order to have a hope of inflicting damage.

Notably all of them were American air power squashing Axis air power, including Pointblank. While the US Air Force and Navy may have issues with effective ground support, they are really good at taking down their opposite number when allowed to do so
 
wiking wrote:

I mean the Circuses and Rhubarbs of OTL were generally bloody messes that either failed to contact any Germans or were ambushed and suffered 4:1 loss rates.

Oh God!...not this myth again. Why does anyone think it's useful to compare total Fighter Command losses to all causes with just the (alleged) combat losses of JG2 and JG26 alone?

In the second half of 1941, FC lost 411 fighters to all causes, of which at least 70 were lost to flak. In the same period JG2 and JG26 lost 236 fighters to all causes, of which approximately zero were lost to flak. As a reality check we can look at pilot losses: in the Battle of Britain the RAF lost about a thousand fighters to all causes, and had 420 pilots killed. In the second half of 1941, JG2 and JG26 lost 100 pilots killed. If we assume the same ratio between lost aircraft and dead pilots, this would have the German units losing 238 aircraft - so pretty good agreement.

However, JG2 and JG26 were not alone: at various times there were gruppen from JG1, JG52 and JG53 also taking part in the defence, as well as other units like Jagdfliegerschule 5. These units claimed about 100 kills, so if we assume a 50% overclaim, they will have actually shot down 60-70 RAF aircraft, and will have lost about the same number themselves. Add non-combat losses and you're probably looking at a total of about 100 extra lost fighters - thus discounting flak, the RAF and Luftwaffe both lost about 340 fighters. This makes intuitive sense: closely-comparable pilots, flying closely-comparable aircraft, using closely-comparable tactics, suffered closely-comparable losses...who'd have guessed?

The distinguished German fighter pilot Johannes Steinhoff said:

Well, the British were born fighters - very tough, well trained and very sportive. They were brave, and I never fought against better pilots at any time during the war, including the Americans.

When we fought the RAF, it was almost evenly matched in fighters against fighters, so true dogfights, even in the Schwarm, were possible. That was the truest test of men and their machines, and only the best survived.
 
wiking wrote:



Oh God!...not this myth again. Why does anyone think it's useful to compare total Fighter Command losses to all causes with just the (alleged) combat losses of JG2 and JG26 alone?

In the second half of 1941, FC lost 411 fighters to all causes, of which at least 70 were lost to flak. In the same period JG2 and JG26 lost 236 fighters to all causes, of which approximately zero were lost to flak. As a reality check we can look at pilot losses: in the Battle of Britain the RAF lost about a thousand fighters to all causes, and had 420 pilots killed. In the second half of 1941, JG2 and JG26 lost 100 pilots killed. If we assume the same ratio between lost aircraft and dead pilots, this would have the German units losing 238 aircraft - so pretty good agreement.

However, JG2 and JG26 were not alone: at various times there were gruppen from JG1, JG52 and JG53 also taking part in the defence, as well as other units like Jagdfliegerschule 5. These units claimed about 100 kills, so if we assume a 50% overclaim, they will have actually shot down 60-70 RAF aircraft, and will have lost about the same number themselves. Add non-combat losses and you're probably looking at a total of about 100 extra lost fighters - thus discounting flak, the RAF and Luftwaffe both lost about 340 fighters. This makes intuitive sense: closely-comparable pilots, flying closely-comparable aircraft, using closely-comparable tactics, suffered closely-comparable losses...who'd have guessed?

The distinguished German fighter pilot Johannes Steinhoff said:

Careful now your trying to use facts to counteract one of the biggest myths about the RAF. Next thing you will be saying that all RAF pilots werent complete incompetent buffoons. ;)
 
In the second half of 1941, FC lost 411 fighters to all causes, of which at least 70 were lost to flak. In the same period JG2 and JG26 lost 236 fighters to all causes, of which approximately zero were lost to flak.

Does that man that we should also loose the German aircraft brought down by AA fire, balloons and all the other various means at Britain's disposal during the BoB?

As a reality check we can look at pilot losses: in the Battle of Britain the RAF lost about a thousand fighters to all causes, and had 420 pilots killed. In the second half of 1941, JG2 and JG26 lost 100 pilots killed. If we assume the same ratio between lost aircraft and dead pilots, this would have the German units losing 238 aircraft - so pretty good agreement.

If you're going to do a reality check at least get the figures correct... the official recognised figures are 544 RAF aircrew lost. Okay some of those will be Defiant and Blenheim crew but as a rough estimate it's closer to 500 pilots lost during the BoB. As for fighters lost you put the figure at 1000 or so to all causes whereas in fact it was closer to 1100 taking into account training accidents, losses on the ground etc. etc. Combat losses however were in the low 900's.

So you say that the pilot losses were at 42% when in reality they were more in the region of 50-55%. I don't know if that makes a difference to your calculations but it's worth pointing out.
 
In the second half of 1941, FC lost 411 fighters to all causes, of which at least 70 were lost to flak. In the same period JG2 and JG26 lost 236 fighters to all causes, of which approximately zero were lost to flak.
Hmmm are you sure about the LW losses? The only source I have readily to hand is a book by S. Mike Pavelec: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945.

The losses he quotes for German fighters include all theatres, Western and Eastern Europe and the Med/North Africa so it's not broken down by theatre unfortunately. He quotes combat losses of 447 fighters for the whole of the LW in the second half of 1941 with a further 378 to other causes.

If you take every loss into consideration according to your figures JG2 and JG26 suffered close to 29% of all losses during this period. If however you take out the no-combat losses as you want to for the RAF your figures show that 53% of all combat losses were suffered by JG2 and JG26 (plus other losses by other units) in defence against the RAF in a period when the western theatre was a side show.
 
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