German Victory at The Battle of Britain

Personally, I think there is some scope to be had in 'A Better Show in 1940', whereby the events as described run along, with the Luftwaffe doing 'better' but not nearly enough and then the Germans NOT attempting the invasion.

I think this is the closest you can get to a German 'win'. It'd be interesting to see the longer term effects of a more weakened RAF during the course of the whole war, and a (presumably) stronger Luftwaffe.

I still think the (European) Axis lose and probably lose there or there abouts in May 1945, perhaps just LATE May of 1945.


Given the amount of aircraft and pilots produced after the BoB relative to before, it would have negligable impact.
 

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Given the amount of aircraft and pilots produced after the BoB relative to before, it would have negligable impact.

Honestly the best option would have been to interdict the English Channel and raid the ports on the coast, that way grinding the Brits down without fighting directly over their bases and radar the whole time; also, rather than have the Brits parachute over their territory and live to fight another day, the Channel could claim pilots on a more equal basis, as German naval units could try to rescue their men just as well as the Brits, who will be wary about risking their bigger ships to confront the Germans so long as the LW is patrolling with greater strength.

The only problem is that the German High Command was built as an echo chamber full of yes-men who generally did not have the guts to tell Goering and Hitler that bombing would not bring Britain to the table.

Now without Germany actively bombing British cities on a large scale would the British resort to terror raids later???
 
Personally, I think there is some scope to be had in 'A Better Show in 1940', whereby the events as described run along, with the Luftwaffe doing 'better' but not nearly enough and then the Germans NOT attempting the invasion.

I think this is the closest you can get to a German 'win'. It'd be interesting to see the longer term effects of a more weakened RAF during the course of the whole war, and a (presumably) stronger Luftwaffe.

I still think the (European) Axis lose and probably lose there or there abouts in May 1945, perhaps just LATE May of 1945.

Well put. Victory in the air was possible through the eastablishment of many factors.

1) Goering slips in the bathtub and breaks his neck before WWII
2) The Luftwaffe go all out for the radar stations from the get-go
3) Better officers assigned for intel
4) Earlier/better design and deployment of the He-177 (ASB?)
5) Germany's master advocate of strategic bombing doesn't die in a plane crash
6) Forget the "Channel Bombing" strategy
7) Establish a true recon force for the Luftwaffe
8) Maintain the airstrikes on airfields only
9) Keep up the campaign on the RAF even in the face of Berlin being bombed (ASB, but we're talking how to win, not Hitler's lack of impulse control)
10) Turn to aircraft factories only after the RAF pulls north of the Thames

Results: Operational Luftwaffe victory on the same scale that IOTL was enjoyed by the RAF. Question is, when does the Luftwaffe ease up due to the demands of the campaigns of Yugoslavia, Greece, Crete, and Barbarossa?
 
Honestly the best option would have been to interdict the English Channel and raid the ports on the coast, that way grinding the Brits down without fighting directly over their bases and radar the whole time; also, rather than have the Brits parachute over their territory and live to fight another day, the Channel could claim pilots on a more equal basis, as German naval units could try to rescue their men just as well as the Brits, who will be wary about risking their bigger ships to confront the Germans so long as the LW is patrolling with greater strength.

The only problem is that the German High Command was built as an echo chamber full of yes-men who generally did not have the guts to tell Goering and Hitler that bombing would not bring Britain to the table.

Now without Germany actively bombing British cities on a large scale would the British resort to terror raids later???


So the RAF is going to destroy itself fighting over..water? With nothing on it (convoys had been cancelled as too dangerous, and they werent necessary, just useful).
Raids on ports do, well, very little - the 1940 LW had nothing like the bombweight to seriously damage ports, and the RAF can still drop on you and do serious damage, and the pilots still land on British soil...

Dowding will be perfectly happy to let the LW swan around over the oggin as much as they like....:rolleyes:
 
Political solution to Battle of Britain

If the Battle of Britain had been lost, the Brits would move their planes up the the North where the Germans couldn't get them, recovered, and resumed the battle. If the Germans did try to invade then the Royal Navy would sink the ships to the bottom of the Channel, and if they did land the soldiers would get surrounded and captured after the aforementioned sinking.

The Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine weren't made for amphibious invasions. The Royal Navy was made for sinking every ship it saw. Do the math.

You're right: the Royal Navy would have turned the Channel red with German blood if the Kriegsmarine had tried an invasion unless the Luftwaffe had the only planes in the sky, and even then German casualties would have been high.

Therefore as a point of departure, have the civil servant who by warning Churchill that if he didn't pull the RAF out during the invasion of France and the Low Countries Churchill wouldn't have an RAF, got Churchill to pull the RAF out and thereby saving the RAF for the Battle of Britain, become a yes man and keep his mouth shut.

The RAF "breaks" and Churchill et al. feel that they have no option bot to sign a peace treaty with Hitler, thereby opting for a "POLITICAL" solution, whereas most solutions on the this board tend to be military. Although I can't document it, one scenario is that Germany gets her old pre WW1 colonies back and keeps de facto control of the countries (and their colonies) that Germany conquered. Germany gets a free hand to deal with the Soviet Union. Great Britain is acknowledged to be the master of the seas and the British Empire.
 
Alright, I can see how that can get old.

Thanks for the welcome, is there any other "General Unmentionables" I should know about?

In addition to what others said, I put forth:

Any Axis nation getting the atomic bomb first.
Nazi Super Science/Technology in general (their jet planes, rocket planes, and super tanks/artillery probably did more to win the war for the Allies than a few regiments of soldiers).
Japanese invasion of the Eastern Soviet Union.

But I'd like to say that Zheng He's treasure fleet is not quite unmentionable. It's workable, just difficult, unlikely, and far more likely to lead to Chinese trading posts in India and possibly a small outpost in Australia (emphasis on the "possibly" and "small") than Chinese America (as is normally put forth).

Welcome to the Forum!
 
Scissors-beat-paper.jpg
 
Sealion? I thought the Battle of Britain was more about destroying the RAF. That, at least, was slightly possible.
 
Alright, I can see how that can get old.

Thanks for the welcome, is there any other "General Unmentionables" I should know about?

aside from what has already been mentioned, there is also:

"WI the South wins the American Civil War"
and the subtobic:
"WI the Confederacy wins at Gettysburg"

ASB crossovers with the Draka TL are also a bit overdone, same goes for "the race invades _________"

other topics as nonstarters:

Nazi wonder weapons as war winners, soviet invasion of the continental US, or any invasion of the continental US following WWI for that matter.

Welcome to the board and don't mind all the hubub, this time next week nobody here will even remember that you posted like the 500th sealion thread and move on with their lives.
 
If Britain signed an armistice with Germany, would Japan still "go south" and attack British colonies in southeast Asia?
 
Therefore as a point of departure, have the civil servant who by warning Churchill that if he didn't pull the RAF out during the invasion of France and the Low Countries Churchill wouldn't have an RAF, got Churchill to pull the RAF out and thereby saving the RAF for the Battle of Britain, become a yes man and keep his mouth shut.

It was Dowding AOC of Fighter Command who wrote a reply to a request for more fighter squadrons to go to France. After reading the letter, Churchill withdrew the 'offer' but in reality more aircraft were sent - part on a part-time basis i.e. not based there.
After, the Battle of France was over, while the Lw repaired French airfields, and went on leave, the RAF re-equiped with fighters from the factories.
 
The RAF "breaks" and Churchill et al. feel that they have no option bot to sign a peace treaty with Hitler, thereby opting for a "POLITICAL" solution, whereas most solutions on the this board tend to be military. Although I can't document it, one scenario is that Germany gets her old pre WW1 colonies back and keeps de facto control of the countries (and their colonies) that Germany conquered. Germany gets a free hand to deal with the Soviet Union. Great Britain is acknowledged to be the master of the seas and the British Empire.

I assume you're talking about Winston's Evil Twin Skippy.:D:rolleyes:
 
Winston C and a peace treaty in 1940

I assume you're talking about Winston's Evil Twin Skippy.:D:rolleyes:

Nope, I'm talking about "our Winnie". He (an actor!!!) made a speech about fighting the Germans on the beaches, but if there was a real possibility of that happening who knows what would have happened.
 
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