German utilization of Char G in 40 - 45

trajen777

Banned
What would have happened if the Germans had utilized the French Tank production Facilities in 1940 - 45. IN specific if they had used the prototype of the Char G and gone to production per the French plans. From what i have read this might have been the equal of the T34 and superior in many ways :

* Three man turret
* 75 mm gun // expandable to 90 mm
* Auto load
* Gun stabilization system
* Est production 350 month expanding to 1000 per month

Source – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_G1
“The Char G1 was a French replacement project for the Char D2 medium tank. Several prototypes from different companies were developed since 1936, but not a single one had been fully completed at the time of the Fall of France in 1940. The projects represented some of the most advanced French tank design of the period and finally envisaged a type that would have been roughly equal in armament and mobility to later World War II standard tanks of other nations, such as the Soviet T-34 and the American M4 Sherman, but possessing several novel features, such as gun stabilisation, a semi-automatic loader and an optical rangefinder
In the summer of 1938 a further problem for the Renault design materialised in that the new demand was made that the turret should hold a stabilised gun and a telemetric rangefinder, features to which the cast turret could not be easily adapted.[31] As the 2.5 tonne pseudo-turret was moved about by the gun barrel, its momentum tended to disturb the sight-laying. This problem was solved in 1939 with the help of APX, which designed a system in which the vertical axis of the gun mount was directly connected to the turret roof. At the same time the troublesome Cleveland transmission was abandoned.[32] Overall the Renault design process in the years 1938 and 1939 was very slow.
On 10 September 1939 the Char G1R was the only one of the projects that was to be further developed, probably because the Renault company was exceptional in having reserve production capacity left.[22]
However, in 2008 French armour historian Stéphane Ferrard proposed an alternative interpretation, arguing that the fact that the Renault project was singled out for continued development shows that, had the disruptive course of events not prevented it, very likely the Char G1R would have been taken into production anyway, probably with the ARL 3 turret and a 400 hp engine.[36] Further logical improvement steps would then have been the fitting of the three-man ARL 42 turret, followed by the change to an L/40 75 mm gun, resulting for 1942 in a tank type that would have been comparable in armament and mobility to actually built medium tanks of that date, such as the Soviet T-34 and American M4 Sherman, but with more technologically advanced features, like a range finder and gun stabilisation, foreshadowing the postwar AMX 30.[37]
 

Andre27

Banned
I will admit that i have always found the Char G quite intriguing, but i don't think production would have wielded sufficient number to make a difference.

The thing is that most factories in France of that era were ill suited for mass production and the Char G would have suffered from that.

In my opinion a production of 350 a month would be very difficult to achieve, let alone 1000.
 
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Deleted member 1487

I mean there wasn't even a prototype, it was just still effectively an idea on the drawing board. They'd be better off just going with their own design at that point. As it was the Germans were planning on the war being over before they could get their tank in that 30-35 ton category off the drawing board, so its highly unlikely they'd do more than borrow a few ideas from it for existing German designs. It should be noted though it would have been like a heavier Pz IV with the longer 75mm gun than anything remotely as good as the Panther. It would be like the lower velocity early Sherman based on what I can tell and the semi-auto reloader would be problematic (AFAIK they still are today). In fact most f the advanced features were on a wishlist of great things to have, but none of them were remotely ready in 1940.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_G1
The main gun was to be an L/32 75 mm gun, providing, despite its limited caliber-length compared to anticipated comparable AFV main weapons of other major military powers, a good muzzle velocity through the use of Brandt tungsten armour-piercing subcalibre ammunition.[16]
That would have been remarkably inferior to the 1942 M4 Sherman.

Frankly the Germans would have had an easier time getting the VK3001H design in production sooner than the Char G1.
Honestly though the big problem for the Germans was their lack of motivation to get a next generation tank ready until after the fall of the USSR, which was expected in 1941 by everyone. You'd need to change that perception, which changes the entire war BTW, and then you'd just get them rushing their domestic design rather than a mess of proposals that were still not settled in France. You could certainly have an argument that the Germans could get the VK3001H in production, which would have been better than the Char G1R, perhaps using torsion bar suspension to reduce weight and complexity and using the L48 75mm. Its not as good as the Panther, but had greater stretch potential than the Pz IV.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Did the Germans use French industry to produce much in the way of locally designed complex equipment?
Almost none whatsoever. They later did use some French industry to make German designs, like the Ju52.
 

Driftless

Donor
I don't speak or read French either, so I either use translation apps, or slowly parse my way through the text. Still, as far as content goes, that site's in a class by itself for French armor, etc.

From the Google Translations tool for Char-Francais.net:
Upon commissioning of the D2 char, char it appears that only partially meets the needs of the infantry. It was produced only fifty copies (initial production) demonstrating his lack of success.
In 1935, the Cavalry adopts a medium tank, the SOMUA S 35, whose infantry does not want to hear , primarily due to the rivalry between the two arms.
The specifications of the future medium infantry tank 20 tonnes are issued December 18, 1935. They provide a speed of 50 km / h on roads and 20 km / h at all -Land, an autonomy of 400 kilometers, crossing a capacity of 2 meters and fording of 1.20 meters, a capacity of up to 45 ° and 0.80 meter vertical obstacle crossing.
Arming is a 47mm cannon and machine gun 7.5mm. The screen is 40mm.

The tank must be equipped with a protection system against combat gases and be equipped with radio. All of these specifications is virtually match those of the SOMUA S 35.
In May 1936, the Advisory Council of Armament request manufacturers to study a new tank capable of opposing the opposing tanks but within the limit of 20 tons or less. In fact the design of the tank B, complex and expensive does not lend itself to mass production. The new tank of 20 tons to become the future main battle tank.
In October 1936 a special commission reviews the specifications of the tank 20 tons, the maximum speed is reduced to 40 km / h with a range of 200 km. Protection is enhanced and must be equivalent to that of the tank B1 bis. The tank must be able to take a cut of 2.50 m and be gas tight. Its dimensions must remain within the rail gauge. The main armament is a high velocity antitank gun capable of piercing all means enemy tanks in service, supplemented by two machine guns.
The project arouses huge interest among French manufacturers, offering the possibility of becoming the leading manufacturer getting production program.
End 1936 and early 1937 seven companies submit plans: Baudet-Roussel-Donon, FCM Fuga, Lorraine Dietrich, Renault, and SEAM SOMUA. Another company, Batignolles-Chatillon, announces a project that is not followed.

The commission published February 20, 1937 a report on each project. For two of them the studies cease in the year: the draft SOMUA looks like a cross between the SOMUA S 40 and 40 Sau propelled gun; it is essentially a SOMUA S 35 with improved ability uphill. Precise details on the FCM must maintain the general appearance of FCM 36, with about 20% higher dimensions and should be fitted with the turret of the tank FCM F4 fortification of attack.
Some other proposals, those of Donkey-Donon -Roussel, Fuga and Lorraine Dietrich are kept under review until we can get new information about their feasibility. Project SEAM and Renault are sufficiently advanced to approve the construction of each prototype. The good contacts of two companies with the French army had allowed them to begin design work even before the specification has been officially revealed. In the case of Renault this advantage has turned into a handicap when in November it was decided that a main armament of 75 mm on hand should be preferred at the instigation of Prince Andre Poniatowski, head of contractor design office SEAM, the project includes the provision. The SEAM prototype to be delivered before October 31, 1937 at a price of 1.2 million francs, of which twenty percent are advanced by the State.

The new application of a 75 mm gun in hand poses many problems for most competitors since their first projects had no planned combat spacious enough room to mount a weapon of this size; it will likely add additional mass of two tons. The requirement of a 50% increase of the shield causes a further increase in weight of two tons. All projects of February 20, 1937 fail to be limited to the original weight of twenty tons and the limit is increased to 23-25 ​​tons.
Renault The tank can easily be passed with a 75 mm gun turret. In 1936 he proposed as an alternative that has been well received. Encouraged by this, in 1937, he convinced the board that a 75 mm gun turret should be, not merely an option but mandatory. This gives a huge advantage over all his rivals Renault, forced to completely review their projects, leading to inevitable delays
End 1937 the project was renamed char G1 and then allowed all prototypes receive official designation: Lorraine L G1, Renault: R G1, Donkey Donon Rousel: G1 B, Fuga: G1 F and SEAM: G1 P.
The FCM SOMUA and projects, too vague, and are interrupted oriented production capacity towards the manufacture of other types.
On February 1, 1938 Infantry Branch publishes a new specification, the third major change in the project concept: a maximum weight up to 35 tonnes required by the adoption of a 75 mm gun turret of 32 calibres.
These new demands lead most companies to slow the development process: they are reluctant to invest in an increasingly complex system, with uncertain prospects. The French government therefore designates, June 8, 1938, military engineer Maurice LAVIROTTE tanks to guide their efforts and speed up the process; if companies can not get armor plates, they must be allowed to use boiler plate to build prototypes. At this moment Renault is unable to give a possible date of production; the weight of Fouga and BDR projects becomes prohibitive; SEAM expects to begin production in mid-1940 and Lorraine in 1941.

On 12 July 1938 a specification much more detailed sounds. It provides for a heavily armed tank, impenetrable to standard anti-tank gun and having a good tactical and strategic mobility. It requires a main armament of 75 mm high initial speed semi-automatic; a 7.5mm machine gun turret that can also serve as an anti-aircraft weapon; a front cash machine gun; a minimum carriage of ammunition for the gun shots hundred and thirty gun chargers; an unladen weight of thirty tons and a weight in combat order of thirty-two tons. The engine must be started manually or electrically. The caterpillars must be fully accessible. The maximum speed will be 40 km / h on roads and 20 km / h in varied terrain; two fuel tanks must permit a range of two hundred kilometers or eight hours. Crossing the capacity of a vertical obstacle is determined to 80cm and 2.50m for a break. . It must be able to climb a 85% on solid ground or 65% on damp ground, and cross a ford 1,20m depth for the first time, a dimension is indicated: a width of 2.94 m compatible with rail, the height of the fighting compartment is limited to 1.20 m, which is compatible with the installation of a side access door.

With respect to the shielding gas-tight, the required thickness remains to sixty millimeters
crew must have a fire control equipment and developed vision. The dome, armed with machine guns 7.5 mm high, must have great bishop slaved to the main turret, allowing the commander to point himself 75 mm from the lens, lining the pointer. The dome must also be adapted with an optical rangefinder. The gun is a 75 caliber 32 mm, with a good initial speed using piercing sub-caliber ammunition to tungsten Brandt.

In the summer of 1938 none of the projects is able to meet these specifications loads. Char P G1 G1 P char receives his nomination letter P name of Prince Poniatowski involved in its design. SEAM (Education Society of Mechanics and Applications) is the only company whose project is sufficiently advanced since the first informed specifications of 1935, to present a real prototype to the Commission de Vincennes. It comes unfinished during the night of 3 December 1936. Although having neither expected nor any fixed armament engine (a dummy turret 2.2 t bell-shaped with large glass windows was placed on Circular), the vehicle already weighs 23 tonnes, confirming the prediction of a study by the arsenal of Rueil, it would be impossible for a tank to meet the specifications required in a limit of 28 tonnes. Instead engine V12 280 hp provided a Hispano 6-cylinder engine of 120 hp (at 2,200 t / m) was installed. Tests are run between 3 and 10 December show that the maximum speed is too low (14 km / h on the road, 10 km / h on the polygon of Vincennes) while the manufacturer provides 40 km / h with the engine 280 cv. The vehicle carries a shield cast inclined. The combat room can accommodate a piece of 75 mm in the right side of the box. The crew must be four men: a tank commander (in a turret armed with machine guns), a driver, a gunner and a radio operator. The Commission decided that, given the progress of the project, no decision final can not be taken. SEAM is invited to improve the prototype by lengthening the hull by adapting a softer suspension and moving the fireproof wall 95 mm rearward to enlarge the fighting compartment giving more space to service the gun 75 mm. The dimensions of the prototype are: length: 5.25 m Width: 2.36 m Ground clearance: 0.38 m Height of the box: 1.72 m between centers of the tracks: 1.86 m Track width: 0.38 m stepping Capacity: 1.00 m The shield has a thickness of 57 mm front, 40 mm rear and 35 mm on the sides, to which should be added the 20 mm plates protecting the undercarriage.
 
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Driftless
thanks for the translation. I notice the crew size was moving upwards to four. I'd missed that in my reading of the text & was projecting three crew in a production model.

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_G1
That would have been remarkably inferior to the 1942 M4 Sherman.

...

Still able to deal with 98% of the German tanks in production through 1942. The hand full of Tiger battalions would be the exception.

The G1 is unlikely to have been able to mount the 90mm gun the French had in development. More likely ammunition improvements or maybe a better gun would have been the route they'd have taken.
 
Did the Germans use French industry to produce much in the way of locally designed complex equipment?

Some trucks. Mostly they contracted parts or sub components for German or other designs. French industry was under utilize as there were never enough critical materials to fully utilize German industry plus all the factories of occupied Europe. German factories had priority & the others got leftovers. the same went for labor. Skilled labor was hauled off the Germany & the French factories left short. Last,during 1940 & early 41 Germany industry was allowed to loot French & Belgian factories of machine tools & other expensive equipment. That crippled some of the factories or production floors.
 

Deleted member 1487

Driftless
thanks for the translation. I notice the crew size was moving upwards to four. I'd missed that in my reading of the text & was projecting three crew in a production model.



Still able to deal with 98% of the German tanks in production through 1942. The hand full of Tiger battalions would be the exception.

The G1 is unlikely to have been able to mount the 90mm gun the French had in development. More likely ammunition improvements or maybe a better gun would have been the route they'd have taken.
There is no indication that the drawing board tank could have been ready before 1942 anyway or an indication that adding a new model to the production schedule would have helped in 1941-42.
 
True, but in this case there were prototypes undergoing tests. The gun & engine/transmission designs were from existing production or finished designs. The main point would be to settle on specifics for the production model.
 

Deleted member 1487

True, but in this case there were prototypes undergoing tests. The gun & engine/transmission designs were from existing production or finished designs. The main point would be to settle on specifics for the production model.
Effectively though none of that was useful in German factories compared to what was being developed; the gun was inferior to the PAK 40 or even the L41 75mm gun developed in 1935. The transimission was nothing to brag about, while the engine was again no better than existing German types. All the advanced features were in no way near ready. In fact almost none of it was ever fielded by anyone during the war (other than the Sherman gyrostabilzation). Producing things in French factories was a fools errand as most of what was produced for the Germans there IOTL was sabotaged by the French resistance or just generally pissed off French workers. That's a major reason the Germans took things for their factories, including labor, because it was much easier to prevent/punish sabotage in Germany.
 
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