German Unification Question: Prussia and 'Germany' As Seperate Nations?

It such a thing even possible?

Were any of the other German States(Hamburg, Saxony, Bavaria) capable of uniting as a separate nation from Prussia?

Could 'Germany' find a way to get Holland involved(Ala DoD)?
 
It such a thing even possible?

Were any of the other German States(Hamburg, Saxony, Bavaria) capable of uniting as a separate nation from Prussia?

Could 'Germany' find a way to get Holland involved(Ala DoD)?

Well, maybe have the Austro-Prussian war result differently with an eventual true South German Confederacy coming to be to counter the North German Confederation, after that have the North fall apart do to bickering and the minor states not wanting to be ruled by Prussian hegemony, resulting in the ex-NGC states merging with the SGC to form a new German Confederation and eventual Unified Germany while simultaneously keeping Prussia out.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I think you may need a POD well before the Austro-Prussian War to get a completely united Germany (today's Germany) sans Prussia (Brandenburg), primarily because Prussia controlled the Rhineland and Palatinate since the Napoleonic Wars ended.

I remember reading an essay about what if the Franco-Prussian War had been avoided (Napoleon doesn't take Bismarck's bait and just disregards the Prussian's rather bellicose letter.)

Basically, Bavaria, Wuerttemberg, Baden, some other minor South German states, and Austria (but not Hungary, of course) unite into a sort of loose South German Confederation while the North follows a similar course, though under Prussian dominance.

Europe ends up a happier place, according to the author.
 
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Another thought: Would getting Denmark into the Prussian mix, as it were, via dynastic marriage or something, be remotely plausible, or would it be totally ASB?
 
And again more woolgathering: Would or could either 'Germany' or Prussia be able to(or even have the desire to) project power outside of Europe and gain colonies in Africa or the South Pacific, as per OTL?
 
You could do a scenario where Napoleon wins, as he set up the Confederation of the Rhine which included all German states except Prussia, Austria and the areas annexed to France (the Rhineland and Lower Saxony).
 
You could do a scenario where Napoleon wins, as he set up the Confederation of the Rhine which included all German states except Prussia, Austria and the Rhineland.
The Confederation of the Rhine without the Rhineland. That sounds a bit awkward. :p
 
The Confederation of the Rhine without the Rhineland. That sounds a bit awkward. :p
True that. For reference, here's a map of it:

rheinbund.jpg


It's always fascinated me since the first time I saw it in a 6th grade history book.
 
It's always fascinated me since the first time I saw it in a 6th grade history book.
Confederation of teh Rhine is a cooler name then holy roman empire or German confederation i thought they should have kept it after the war.
 
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Originally Prussia didn't want the Western German territory, they wanted Saxony instead (even saying they'd give up their Polish territory for it). The Treaty of Vienna ruined this idea.. Without the Western Territories they don't have any reason to push for German Free Trade or economic unions. Austria is still more interested in Eastern Europe and the Balkans so they're mostly ignoring the other Germanies. Bavaria, Baden, and Wurttenburg will be a pretty powerful block in the South while Hannover is dominant in the North. They will probably work out an economic agreement and eventually unify.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Originally Prussia didn't want the Western German territory, they wanted Saxony instead (even saying they'd give up their Polish territory for it). The Treaty of Vienna ruined this idea.. Without the Western Territories they don't have any reason to push for German Free Trade or economic unions. Austria is still more interested in Eastern Europe and the Balkans so they're mostly ignoring the other Germanies. Bavaria, Baden, and Wurttenburg will be a pretty powerful block in the South while Hannover is dominant in the North. They will probably work out an economic agreement and eventually unify.

I agree; a three-way split is one of the more likely scenarios if Prussia stays disinterested in West Germany. You'd have the Northwest dominated by Hanover, the South dominated by the South German Confederation (or something along those lines; perhaps more Catholic sounding), and the Northeast dominated by Prussia.

Actually, that may all work out rather nicely in the long run.
 
Everyone seems to be imagining that German national sentiment just didn't exist until the Prussians came along and used it to unify Germany, thus bringing misery and suffering to Europe etcetera etcetera. On the contrary, observe the events of 1813-1815. The Rheinbund was not "Germany", it was the Rheinbund, and anything excluding post-Vienna Prussia can't be Germany. An SGC would imply a NGC, so whether that works depends on whether you consider the Bonn Republic to have been "Germany united without Brandenburg". I don't. It was half of a Germany divided in two. One can have Berlin, Munich, and Vienna polities, but none of them will be Germany and all will feel German national sentiment.

To get an Austrian-style Ausschluss of the actual area of land which is Prussia (Koenigsberg and stuff) would, with an earlier PoD, not be too difficult. Just leave it as a Polish vassal or something. Ausschlussing Brandenburg is a big ask. But anything excluidng Westphalia, the Rhineland, Brandenburg, and a substantial intervening chunk is just not worthy of being called "Germany", and a lot of people will be working for unification.

Originally Prussia didn't want the Western German territory, they wanted Saxony instead (even saying they'd give up their Polish territory for it). The Treaty of Vienna ruined this idea.. Without the Western Territories they don't have any reason to push for German Free Trade or economic unions.

This is a remarkably sweeping statement. Prussia would still be a pretty serious industrial contender with Upper Silesia, Brandenburg, and Saxony. Why wouldn't its capitalists want all the benefits of free trade? It wasn't exactly asthough Baden was a vital artery or inter-Prussian commerce, but it was in the Zollverein by 1835. And of course people are still ignoring German sentiment.

Austria is still more interested in Eastern Europe and the Balkans so they're mostly ignoring the other Germanies.

History does not confirm this hypothesis. The Austrians tried to do everything at once, and nursed ambitions to German hegemony a couple of times. Metternich's Balkan policy was simply "preserve the Ottomans whilst making preparations for their Inevitable Collapse", anyway. Given that the Inevitable Collapse was a figment of European imaginations...

Bavaria, Baden, and Wurttenburg will be a pretty powerful block in the South while Hannover is dominant in the North. They will probably work out an economic agreement and eventually unify.

And why doesn't Prussia sign on, pray?

Well, maybe have the Austro-Prussian war result differently with an eventual true South German Confederacy coming to be to counter the North German Confederation, after that have the North fall apart do to bickering and the minor states not wanting to be ruled by Prussian hegemony, resulting in the ex-NGC states merging with the SGC to form a new German Confederation and eventual Unified Germany while simultaneously keeping Prussia out.

Once again, this "countering" notion makes it sound like the Germans all hate eachother. More local unions is fewer systems to harmonise into a fully united Germany.

As to the NGF collapsing:

1) People wanted German unity. "Prussian domination" was resented but hardly to the extent to seperatism.

2) The NGF was a) Prussia and b) Prussia's Puny Insignifict Vassals Pwhahaha. They have a snowballs chance in hell of steering their own course, even if they wanted to for some reason.
 
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It such a thing even possible?

Were any of the other German States(Hamburg, Saxony, Bavaria) capable of uniting as a separate nation from Prussia?

Could 'Germany' find a way to get Holland involved(Ala DoD)?

Get Prussia to hold onto more Polish territory through different Napoleonic Wars, and maybe gain less in Germany itself. Prussia then has the Austrian problem vis-a-vis German nationalism later on. In that case, liberal revolutions and/or ambitious statesmen in the larger German states look internally, excluding Prussia and Austria in an even more emphatic Kleindeutchland.
 
Once again, this "countering" notion makes it sound like the Germans all hate eachother. More local unions is fewer systems to harmonise into a fully united Germany.

No, but Prussia and Austria both disliked eachother since both wanted to be the dominant power in the Germanices, so an Austrian backed SGF and Prussian backed NGF would make sense.


As to the NGF collapsing:

1) People wanted German unity. "Prussian domination" was resented but hardly to the extent to seperatism.

2) The NGF was a) Prussia and b) Prussia's Puny Insignifict Vassals Pwhahaha. They have a snowballs chance in hell of steering their own course, even if they wanted to for some reason.

Political insurgency, or whatever the proper word for it is.
 
No, but Prussia and Austria both disliked eachother since both wanted to be the dominant power in the Germanices, so an Austrian backed SGF and Prussian backed NGF would make sense.

But would not constitute a Germany exclusive of Prussia, but rather 2-3 polities in a disunited Germany in which everybody regarded Prussia as an essential part of "Germany" as a concept and hypothetical state.

Political insurgency, or whatever the proper word for it is.

I don't really know what you mean. Recall, that the NGF was constitutionally the same as the German Empire. "German Unification" consisted of the southern states joining something which already existed, and who's hereditary president then decided to be an Emperor For Teh Prezteej.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
It almost impossible to gain a Germany without Prussia after Vienna, but a different Vienna where Prussia doesn't gain the Rhineland-Westphalen, could end up with a Kleindeutschland solution, where the federal German state doesn't include Prussia are quite possible.
 
This is a remarkably sweeping statement. Prussia would still be a pretty serious industrial contender with Upper Silesia, Brandenburg, and Saxony. Why wouldn't its capitalists want all the benefits of free trade? It wasn't exactly asthough Baden was a vital artery or inter-Prussian commerce, but it was in the Zollverein by 1835. And of course people are still ignoring German sentiment.

Prussia would not be a pretty serious industrial contender yet, remember it's the early 1800's and the Germanies are still largely agrarian and rural. Austria is the dominant industrial power in the region (although still overshadowed by other European powers). Now this isn't saying that Prussia was a slouch, they certainly have an industrial advantage over, say, Bremen. But I supposed that the Prussian response to free trade in Germany would be much like the Austrian response: What do we get out of it? IOTL, the Western provinces forced Prussia to take an interest in commerce in Germany.

As for Baden (And Bavaria and Wurttenburg for that matter) entering the Zollverein, it has everything to do with inter-Prussian commerce. The Prussian interest in free trade in order to unify the two separated parts of their country evolved to include the more unnecessary states in the north. After that it was seeing that the northern states and Prussia were industrializing faster than the south that the southern states decided to join. It stems back to the Prussian Western provinces.

And why doesn't Prussia sign on, pray?

Disinterest, I would think. All of the Prussian actions towards unification all had their seed in self-interest. There isn't any obvious benefit for them to join an economic union and some problems it would bring to them. As for Populism demanding a unified Germany I'd like to point out that the German State Austria never joined and when, in 1848, a group of Constitutional Nationalists called for the unification of Germany and offered the crown to the Prussian King, he had no problem squashing such sentiment.

That is not to say that I think Germany wouldn't/couldn't unify fully without a specific set of criteria as some do, I just was asked to posit something else.
 
Prussia would not be a pretty serious industrial contender yet, remember it's the early 1800's and the Germanies are still largely agrarian and rural. Austria is the dominant industrial power in the region (although still overshadowed by other European powers).

"Would be" being used in the future tense.

Now this isn't saying that Prussia was a slouch, they certainly have an industrial advantage over, say, Bremen. But I supposed that the Prussian response to free trade in Germany would be much like the Austrian response: What do we get out of it? IOTL, the Western provinces forced Prussia to take an interest in commerce in Germany.

The Prussian and Austrian positions aren't really comparable. For one thing, I see no reason why Prussia shouldn't get an internal abolition of duties at about the same time. For another, Prussia then does have an interest in extending its free trade zone to places like Anhalt.

As for Baden (And Bavaria and Wurttenburg for that matter) entering the Zollverein, it has everything to do with inter-Prussian commerce. The Prussian interest in free trade in order to unify the two separated parts of their country evolved to include the more unnecessary states in the north. After that it was seeing that the northern states and Prussia were industrializing faster than the south that the southern states decided to join. It stems back to the Prussian Western provinces.

Undoubtedly these had a role , but as I said, I don't think we can credit them for the abolition of Prussia's internal customs, and that leads logically to customs union with the states that are naturally dependent on Prussia like Mecklenburg, Anhalt, or, Prussia having annexed Saxony, the Thuringian statelets. One might not see a Prusso-centric Zollverein extending to Bavaria (on the other hand, one might: it really depends what happened to the Rhineland), but that hardly means Prussia has been Ausschlussed and a united Germany can do without it.

Disinterest, I would think. All of the Prussian actions towards unification all had their seed in self-interest. There isn't any obvious benefit for them to join an economic union and some problems it would bring to them.

Of course Prussian actions were based on self-interest, but what are the problems of an economic union here? It seems to me that it still has the obvious benefit of expanding Prussian influence and making it a more signifcant player in Germany, which was clearly a Prussian goal in and of itself. There was no economic reason for 1866 or any of the earlier tussles with Austria.

As for Populism demanding a unified Germany I'd like to point out that the German State Austria never joined

And Austria, of course, had some very special circumstances leading to its Ausschluss. To replicate them in Prussia is very difficult. As Valdemar points out, giving Prussia less German and more Polish land would help in that regard, but it's still simply a lot harder logistically, for various reasons. Just looking at the map, Austria's commerce depends on the Danube, whereas Prussia is going to be economically western-orientated with most PoDs after the Partitions. And then to have a united Germany withour Prussia rather than a multipolar one implies Austria in Anschlussed. But what of Austria's own reasons for being excluded from Germany? without removing these, we have Germany split in three, not Germany united withour Prussia.

and when, in 1848, a group of Constitutional Nationalists called for the unification of Germany and offered the crown to the Prussian King, he had no problem squashing such sentiment.

By military force, but the transformation between the 1840s and the 1880s was pretty dramatic.

That is not to say that I think Germany wouldn't/couldn't unify fully without a specific set of criteria as some do, I just was asked to posit something else.

Quite understand, just playing dveil's advocate.
 

Susano

Banned
It such a thing even possible?

Were any of the other German States(Hamburg, Saxony, Bavaria) capable of uniting as a separate nation from Prussia?

Could 'Germany' find a way to get Holland involved(Ala DoD)?

I think you should first check your terminology.

As for the topic itself, the Bavarian government tried to rally the "Third Germany" (i.e., Germany minus Prussia and Austria, the small and middle states) as third pole besides Austria and Prussia, but IOTL that never really got off the ground. There really was no need to - the Bavarian government launched that idea to stay free of outside domination, but the German Confederation as it stood already provided a framework for that anyways. However, there could certainly be circumstances where the Third Germany unites without Prussia and Austria.

As for the Netherlands, that only works if it is "drawn" into the German question by virtue of gaining large German territories. As mentioned yesterday in the Map thread, I once had this idea of the bonapartist Kingdom of Holland surviving, and since itw as shortly in personal union with Napoleonic uber-Berg it gains, after Nappy is defeated, the Rhineland. Hence, the NL are drawn into the whole affair.

In any case, though, IBC as usual raises the good points that the German question wasnt just a matter of diplomacy between and rational interest by the ruling governments, it was also a question of popular sentiment. I would estimate that, if it had not been for overwhelming popular support, the south German states IOTL would never have honorued their treaties with Prussia against France 1870, for example. Austria was a special case - so to say its Empire being a consolidation price, and its traditions a suggerate. And once that all went away after WW1, the Austrians did actively seek reunification with Germany. Prussia did not have the same amount of "traditionality", and even if it had gained more/all of Poland it would not have the same effectr as the larger Austrian Empire. This means there would have been quite a sizeable movement for Prussian reunification with Germany, and it would indeed have been quite an issue I would imagine.

Also of course, the Austrian German-nationalists did not move because very shortly after the re-foundation of the German Empire, it and Austria started to be allied. Which was something at least. However, a triple alliance Germany/Prussia/Austria would be very much more unlikely to work...
 
As for the Netherlands, that only works if it is "drawn" into the German question by virtue of gaining large German territories. As mentioned yesterday in the Map thread, I once had this idea of the bonapartist Kingdom of Holland surviving, and since itw as shortly in personal union with Napoleonic uber-Berg it gains, after Nappy is defeated, the Rhineland. Hence, the NL are drawn into the whole affair.
I disagree. In 1815 the Netherlands had too much of a seperate identity to willingly become part of the German unification. If the netherlands had a large German population I think at best you get a Prusso(German)-Danish war in which Prussia/Germany annexes all the German parts of the Netherlands and let the Dutch part remain independent. The Dutch themselves won't want to be part of Germany. And this will only work if the German part is big and different enough. If for example only East-Frisia qould be Dutch (and not part of the German confederation which is also important), the Netherlands would just be left alone, certainly if it is pro-Prussian/German.

The best way (in my opinion) for the Netherlands to willingly become German is a Napoleonic victory scenario in which the Netherlands remains part of France. While France starts to Francofy the Dutch, Flemish and German parts of France, Dutch, Flemish and German nationalists start to resist. Next to France the confederation of the Rhine becomes a strong German nation (which might include Austria and Prussia) and start to help those nationalists. As the Dutch (and Flemish) recieve help from the Germans they start to think that they have far more incommon with the Germans than the French and basicly decide they would rather be part of the German nation (with whom they have a shared culture, language, etc.) than of France and after a Franco-German war the German parts of France (which include the Netherlands and Flanders) are liberated and annexed to Germany.

Of course just forcefully annexing the Netherlands in a war works too, but in that case the Germans will be seen as foreign occupiers, at least for the next couple of decades.
 
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