That makes sense. I wonder is Marsailles ends up beconing the capital of such a state?
Occitanian is going to do very well indeed in this world
German Unification: How early could it have happened?
- Thread starter Mort the Reaper
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That makes sense. I wonder is Marsailles ends up beconing the capital of such a state?
Occitanian is going to do very well indeed in this world
Which Frankish King in his right mind would give up his own personal powerbase in Reims and Laon, and by this point indirectly Paris? No, IMHO like their IOTL* East Francian counterparts they will just have to travel with no de facto Imperial capital. Each kingdom can probably retain Paris, Pavia or Arles (maybe it's moved back to Vienne in the Dauphiné) as their own traditional capital, but this now West Francian Emperor will have to travel around a lot too.
Also the early HRE missed a vital part of the German-speaking lands in a broad sense, Flanders (it did of course rule the vast majority). Hmm how about the treaty of Verdun is a bit more favourable for Middle Francia and the (majority) Germanic speaking part of West Francia is assigned to Middle Francia, which somewhat like IOTL ends up being subsumed/or merged with East Francia. That change is IMHO small enough, to not be totally unrealistic.
I think that the definition of 'Germany' applied to the Middle-Ages is quite vague, as the modern concept of German nation was developed during the 18th-19th centuries.
The HRE refered to 'the German nation' because the speakers of West Germanic dialects became prominent inside the Empire and the Roman/Latin one became secondary, and the Reformation increased the cultural/social split between the different cultural components.
But during the early stages of the post-Verdun HRE, the concept of 'German nation' would not be applied, while 'Germany' as territory refered to the Roman Germania. The ideal of the Empire was often depicted in art with the feminized figures of (Roman) Germania, Italia, Gallia and Slavia making offers to the Emperor, and the religious (Western Christian) component clearly overlapped the ethnic/cultural ones (in fact, one of the reasons why the HRE did not care much about southern Italy it was because it was considered 'Eastern Christian' until 11th-12th centuries).
The HRE refered to 'the German nation' because the speakers of West Germanic dialects became prominent inside the Empire and the Roman/Latin one became secondary, and the Reformation increased the cultural/social split between the different cultural components.
But during the early stages of the post-Verdun HRE, the concept of 'German nation' would not be applied, while 'Germany' as territory refered to the Roman Germania. The ideal of the Empire was often depicted in art with the feminized figures of (Roman) Germania, Italia, Gallia and Slavia making offers to the Emperor, and the religious (Western Christian) component clearly overlapped the ethnic/cultural ones (in fact, one of the reasons why the HRE did not care much about southern Italy it was because it was considered 'Eastern Christian' until 11th-12th centuries).
The medieval Kingdom of Germany is your best chance, especially under the Ottonians, whose Saxon background breaks the link with west Francia. The biggest problem you need to deal with is the aspiration to Romanness. The concept of being the successor to Rome implied a universal imperial nature, roughly equivalent to the Chinese "all under heaven" leadership, that transcended individual peoples. This was in direct tension to the formation of a German proto-nation state, which happened in the middle ages in England and France. If you get the imperial title to go to West Francia instead, get Italy carved off somehow, then the incentives for the German Kings will be flipped and focused on stressing the common kinship of the German tribes and centralization.
Maybe the Germans could build some sort of image of an equal and opposite to Rome? Build an northern empire on the baltic and north seas instead of the Roman med? like from the Netherlands to what we would call Lithuania, with a conquest of Denmark and Scania
German Unification: How early could it have happened?
I'd say no sooner than the 1750's The whole idea of an ethnic nation-state didn't really exist before that. There could have been some mega-kingdom that would encompass most of what is considered 'Germany' today at various times before that, but it wouldn't be a true 'Germany'. It would merely be a Lord ruling over a dozen or so small countries that have more reasons why they differ from each other than reasons why they are alike. True, most of them speak some kind of German, but then again, so do the Netherlands
I'd say no sooner than the 1750's The whole idea of an ethnic nation-state didn't really exist before that. There could have been some mega-kingdom that would encompass most of what is considered 'Germany' today at various times before that, but it wouldn't be a true 'Germany'. It would merely be a Lord ruling over a dozen or so small countries that have more reasons why they differ from each other than reasons why they are alike. True, most of them speak some kind of German, but then again, so do the Netherlands
So was England not England until then, or France not France until then (that one kinda holds water)?
For all intents and purposes, Germany was united in the Middle Ages. If your opinion is that it was not, then I expect you to argue that a Persian empire or nation did not exist until the Safavid period....
So, was the Sassanid empire an united Iran? Or was it just a king with many underling kings?