German territorial gains in the West in the event of a German WWI victory?

Victorious Germans are gonna want to annex something, just to avoid "mutilated victory".
I can think of Congo, southern Belgium, and some border French areas at very least. And not just Briey/Longwy, but at least the same amount they took in 1870s.
Not to mention puppetizing Belgium and crippling reparations to France.
 

Deleted member 94680

It all depends on the timing and the circumstances of the victory. Late '17 onwards with a War roughly as OTL, then probably Luxembourg into the empire, border adjustments with Belgium (and dismantling of the fortresses), maybe Alsace-Lorraine expanded?, and the German African empire gets to expand coast to coast at the expense of the Portuguese and Belgians.

I'm not so sure about outright annexations of more French (European) territory, but possibly a "reverse Saarland" to go with the reparations to hobble France for a generation.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I'm not so sure about outright annexations of more French (European) territory, but possibly a "reverse Saarland" to go with the reparations to hobble France for a generation.
You mean annex iron ore-rich Briey and Longwy?
 
Wasn't the more moderate tone of the Reichstag by this point an attempt to highlight differences between the military and the politicians? With at least one eye on the post-War peace settlement (from either a losing or victorious position)?

I wouldn't think so, the Peace Resolution of mid 1917 came from a reshuffling of the coalition blocs in the Reichstag which previously had a majority in support of strong war aims. Given the 2 largest parties only had 110 and 90 of the 397 seats it doesn't take much of a change of heart to get a new majority and as a result a Peace Resolution. In any case the Reichstag was losing power/influence to the Imperial Executive and the Military branch of the executive was supreme over the civilian Chancellor as well as the Emperor, it was OHL who pushed for Bethmann's dismissal and nominated his successor.

Given the chaotic nature of the German political structure and the war situation I doubt if anyone saw the need to get a peace resolution out there on record to get a better outcome if they lost.
 

Deleted member 94680

You mean annex iron ore-rich Briey and Longwy?

No I mean occupy Briey and Longwy. Something akin to the League of Nations mandate or the post-WWII French Protectorate. Some Treaty referencing iron exports for Germany, removing it from the French economy, that kind of thing. Stops a load of angry Frenchmen from being inside the Empire, probably administered by the Heer - an Ober Ost for the West, as it were.
 
Peace resolutions became increasingly lenient, as Reichstag became increasingly less confident in achieving total victory.
If German soldiers march through Paris, no faction in Reichstag is gonna ask for soft peace. What are they gonna tell their voters: "We know French killed millions Germans on western front, but that's no reason to be rude to them!"
 
Peace resolutions became increasingly lenient, as Reichstag became increasingly less confident in achieving total victory.
If German soldiers march through Paris, no faction in Reichstag is gonna ask for soft peace. What are they gonna tell their voters: "We know French killed millions Germans on western front, but that's no reason to be rude to them!"

Of course what happened in the east with the treaty of Berlin loosening the treaty of Brest Litovsk could also happen in the west, any annexations made by the military arm of the Executive being put on the table 6 months later by the politicians.

While everybody harps on about territory and annexations Germany also had significant political and economic war aims that needed to be met, while the B-L iron region was not an absolute imperative by late 1916 the Allied acceptance of the Mitteleuropa customs union was never put on the table. Gaining a French ore field but losing access to world markets due to punitive tariff barriers was not a good deal so Germany had to balance annexations with the needs of the increasingly global German economy.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
No I mean occupy Briey and Longwy. Something akin to the League of Nations mandate or the post-WWII French Protectorate. Some Treaty referencing iron exports for Germany, removing it from the French economy, that kind of thing. Stops a load of angry Frenchmen from being inside the Empire, probably administered by the Heer - an Ober Ost for the West, as it were.
How many people did Briey and Longwy have back then?
 

Deleted member 94680

How many people did Briey and Longwy have back then?

Briey and Longwy themselves were (are) small places, with populations of less than 15,000 today. However, they were both in the Department of Meurthe-et-Moselle, which I imagine the Germans would take (occupy/annex/puppetise/ whatever) as a unit to provide infrastructure for their 'use'. According to a website I found that list French census returns, in 1911 the population of the Department was listed as 564,730 and in 1921 as 503,810.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Briey and Longwy themselves were (are) small places, with populations of less than 15,000 today. However, they were both in the Department of Meurthe-et-Moselle, which I imagine the Germans would take (occupy/annex/puppetise/ whatever) as a unit to provide infrastructure for their 'use'. According to a website I found that list French census returns, in 1911 the population of the Department was listed as 564,730 and in 1921 as 503,810.
So, why not outright annex Briey and Longwy and puppetize the rest of this territory?
 
So, why not outright annex Briey and Longwy and puppetize the rest of this territory?

If France and Britain erect punitive tarriff barriers against an annexationist Germany no ore field can compensate for the economic damage. Germany is far better off getting allied agreement over mitteleuropa and access to world markets than some land with a couple of holes in it.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
If France and Britain erect punitive tarriff barriers against an annexationist Germany no ore field can compensate for the economic damage. Germany is far better off getting allied agreement over mitteleuropa and access to world markets than some land with a couple of holes in it.
Makes sense. :)
 
Briey and Longwy themselves were (are) small places, with populations of less than 15,000 today. However, they were both in the Department of Meurthe-et-Moselle, which I imagine the Germans would take (occupy/annex/puppetise/ whatever) as a unit to provide infrastructure for their 'use'. According to a website I found that list French census returns, in 1911 the population of the Department was listed as 564,730 and in 1921 as 503,810.

They are in a narrow northerly strip of the Department, almost detached and easily detachable. There would be no reason to annex the Department as a whole.
 
What about non territorial war aims? Mitteleuropa was a double edged sword, it had mixed economic impacts but was a mechanism to control the countries around Germany so the negative economic effects were outweighed by the political gains. However it too ebbed and flowed with sometimes Belgium being included and other times only a handful of eastern states, all the while contingent on French and British acceptance.

So is the inclusion of Belgium into Mitteleuropa a worthy substitute for direct control of B-L?
 
If France and Britain erect punitive tarriff barriers against an annexationist Germany no ore field can compensate for the economic damage. Germany is far better off getting allied agreement over mitteleuropa and access to world markets than some land with a couple of holes in it.

On the other hand, we aren't talking about a rationalist Germany, we're talking about the guys who tried to get Mexico to invade California.

Mexico during a civil war.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Meurthe-et-Moselle is a creation of the Treaty of Frankfurt(1871). It originally was two separate departments, Meurthe and Moselle.

Under the terms of the Treaty, the Germans annexed all of Moselle department except https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissement_of_Briey,. And the north east third of Meurthe department. The French then decided to merge the remaining two pieces into a single department. That's why Meurthe-et-Moselle has that weird bit that sticks up. That part was in Moselle before the treaty and the mergers, the rest was in Meurthe.

The really unusual bit is that the French didn't undo the territorial changers after the 1918. They regained the rest of Moselle department, which now contained bits of what had Meurthe and Moselle departments, but left the departments as they were divided 1871 by the Germans.

The Germans could easily take the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissement_of_Briey and leave the rest of Meurth-et-Moselle. Which they should have done in 1871, since leaving that rump bit meant Moselle still had representation in the French chamber to harp on revanche.

The Arrondissement of Briey would be the bit with all the iron mines, and very little people. The rest of the department has little value, and too many Frenchmen.

From a border perspective, Briey also removes the French from having a border with Luxembourg, which might be a consideration.
Yeah, not taking Briey-Longwy back in 1871 was certainly a mistake--especially considering that Germany already annexed the French-majority areas around Metz.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Especially since the whole arrondisement of Briey contained very few people in 1914, never mind in 1871. Even today, the entire pop of the Arrondissement is very low, compared to Nancy and the rest of Meurth-et-Moselle.

  1. Arrondissement of Briey (subprefecture: Briey), with 130 communes. The population of the arrondissement was 164,589 in 2013.
  2. Arrondissement of Lunéville (subprefecture: Lunéville), with 164 communes. The population of the arrondissement was 79,567 in 2013.
  3. Arrondissement of Nancy (prefecture of the Meurthe-et-Moselle department: Nancy), with 188 communes. The population of the arrondissement was 417,430 in 2013.
  4. Arrondissement of Toul (subprefecture: Toul), with 112 communes. The population of the arrondissement was 69,418 in 2013.
Yeah, it certainly wouldn't have been much of a problem for Germany to annex Briey back in 1871; after all, even with its current population, Briey looks pretty easy for Germany to swallow.
 
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