German strength without either world war

abc123

Banned
I take it you're out of objections and are now going on the sentimental value argument? I don't think that really applies to an industrial base and capital goods. :p

Except that your example is sui generis, and can be applied just in case of Japan and germany, and even there american help wasn't ONLY reason of German/Japanese prosperity.
And in remaining 98 examples, when someone destroy's your house, you are a homeless, because he won't rebuild that house.;)
 

Typo

Banned
Except that your example is sui generis, and can be applied just in case of Japan and germany, and even there american help wasn't ONLY reason of German/Japanese prosperity.
And in remaining 98 examples, when someone destroy's your house, you are a homeless, because he won't rebuild that house.;)
Dude, how is this not a red herring? We are talking specifically about America and FRG after WWII.
 

loughery111

Banned
Maybe, but it isn't some special favour that someone destroy's your house.
He maybe can later give to you a new house, but that will remain HIS house, not your's.;)

We get it. You don't want to admit that Germany's present-day industrial prowess is owed in large part to American generosity after WWII. The fact is, that in no way takes away from Germany's achievements. Their reputation as producing the world's best engineers is well-deserved, and their industry is second to none, except maybe running closely with Japan. They did that all themselves, with a little boost from the US. Hardly an embarrassing thing, to require help immediately after the end of a devastating war.

Now, getting back to the topic, what you're saying is now completely irrelevant to the topic. The fact is that absent WWII, the Germans never would have gotten that "pick-me-up" from the US, and their industry would have looked much like the rest of the world. Do you agree with that statement?
 

loughery111

Banned
Except that your example is sui generis, and can be applied just in case of Japan and germany, and even there american help wasn't ONLY reason of German/Japanese prosperity.
And in remaining 98 examples, when someone destroy's your house, you are a homeless, because he won't rebuild that house.;)

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GERMANY!!!! That's the whole point!!!!

Also, I never said your prosperity was due solely to America. In fact, I just said otherwise not ten seconds ago. But the current industrial-leanings of your economy are due, in large part, to the gifts America gave after WWII. Left to its own devices as it will be ITTL, the Germany economy would have evolved in a different direction, one that more closely resembles the rest of the Western world.
 

abc123

Banned
Now, getting back to the topic, what you're saying is now completely irrelevant to the topic. The fact is that absent WWII, the Germans never would have gotten that "pick-me-up" from the US, and their industry would have looked much like the rest of the world. Do you agree with that statement?

American help WAS important, nobody denies that.
American security umbrella was and still IS important, nobody denies that.

But, WW2 was before 65 years ago.
Anything that Germany has built in period after 1945. is hopelessly outdated NOW.
But, german industry is live and kicing.
With outdated equipment?
No.
With most modern equipment and methods in the world and best trained workforce. Best infrastructure. Best society. legal system etc.
Maybe not best, but definitly in the first 5-10 in the world.
So?
Why something like this couldn't happen without WW1 and WW2?
 

Typo

Banned
American help WAS important, nobody denies that.
American security umbrella was and still IS important, nobody denies that.

But, WW2 was before 65 years ago.
Anything that Germany has built in period after 1945. is hopelessly outdated NOW.
But, german industry is live and kicing.
With outdated equipment?
No.
With most modern equipment and methods in the world and best trained workforce. Best infrastructure. Best society. legal system etc.
Maybe not best, but definitly in the first 5-10 in the world.
So?
Why something like this couldn't happen without WW1 and WW2?
because the shit they had before 1945 was even more outdated
 

abc123

Banned
because the shit they had before 1945 was even more outdated

So, your argument goes: Germany wouldn't make any greater inovations or modernising of industry if were no WW2 and american help, but never mind that Germany has done just that ( modernising ) during last 65 years.
Sure.:rolleyes:
 
American help WAS important, nobody denies that.
American security umbrella was and still IS important, nobody denies that.

But, WW2 was before 65 years ago.
Anything that Germany has built in period after 1945. is hopelessly outdated NOW.
But, german industry is live and kicing.
With outdated equipment?
No.
With most modern equipment and methods in the world and best trained workforce. Best infrastructure. Best society. legal system etc.
Maybe not best, but definitly in the first 5-10 in the world.
So?
Why something like this couldn't happen without WW1 and WW2?

Alright. I get the feeling you're ignoring loughery's salient point: Germany will be at least as well off as IOTL, but they will not be developed in the same way.

Obviously, Germany is better off in this scenario. Not losing so many people is automatically a plus. But to assume that that Germany will end up like OTL's Germany is absolutely wrong.

No one's knocking Germany in this thread. At all. Calm down.
 

Typo

Banned
So, your argument goes: Germany wouldn't make any greater inovations or modernising of industry if were no WW2 and american help, but never mind that Germany has done just that ( modernising ) during last 65 years.
Sure.:rolleyes:
Strawman more
 

loughery111

Banned
Why something like this couldn't happen without WW1 and WW2?

Did you completely ignore that wonderful section I included on corporate culture? You know, the one where I said that the present emphasis German firms have on advanced manufacturing techniques and extremely high quality evolved as a direct result of the post-war economic process?

I'm guessing you did. So let's try again. Without WWII, there's none of the anger felt IOTL among consumers in France, the UK, or the US about Germany. They have no disinclination to "buy German," so to speak. That public relations problem was what drove the Germans IOTL to develop an emphasis on quality and efficiency, and that emphasis means that it's absolutely necessary to completely overhaul your capital plant every few years. I'd say at least once or twice a decade. So where American or British firms IOTL will buy new capital goods when necessary, German ones buy them on a regular schedule and design them so that they can be paid off inside that time frame. This enables them to continually access the latest and best capital goods. It also, ironically, slightly lowers their short- and medium-term profit margins, which is why most firms don't do it. Where it shines is in the long run, when their reputation for quality and fine tolerances keep repeat customers coming back even though the goods are more expensive.

Now, we take away WWII. Not only does Germany not get the shot in the arm given to it IOTL by the United States; it also has no need to develop the corporate culture that has kept its capital base so up to date over the last six decades. German firms ITTL, without either of those impetuses, will behave in much the manner that American, British, Canadian, or French firms do IOTL. It's capital plant, therefore, will look much less like it does IOTL and much more like America's does IOTL. It's education system will still have that technical bent, and it's engineers will be good. But the corporate culture that supports them with state-of-the-art capital goods and factories will never come to exist. So TTL will not see the near-constant updating and upgrading that OTL does. Germany's economy will look much more mixed, rather than having the focus on industry and manufacturing that was given to it by WWII. Follow my logic?
 

abc123

Banned
Alright. I get the feeling you're ignoring loughery's salient point: Germany will be at least as well off as IOTL, but they will not be developed in the same way.

Obviously, Germany is better off in this scenario. Not losing so many people is automatically a plus. But to assume that that Germany will end up like OTL's Germany is absolutely wrong.

No one's knocking Germany in this thread. At all. Calm down.


I don't care about germany. I'm not a German and I don't live in Germany.
I simply think that he is wrong.
 

abc123

Banned
Did you completely ignore that wonderful section I included on corporate culture? You know, the one where I said that the present emphasis German firms have on advanced manufacturing techniques and extremely high quality evolved as a direct result of the post-war economic process?

I'm guessing you did. So let's try again. Without WWII, there's none of the anger felt IOTL among consumers in France, the UK, or the US about Germany. They have no disinclination to "buy German," so to speak. That public relations problem was what drove the Germans IOTL to develop an emphasis on quality and efficiency, and that emphasis means that it's absolutely necessary to completely overhaul your capital plant every few years. I'd say at least once or twice a decade. So where American or British firms IOTL will buy new capital goods when necessary, German ones buy them on a regular schedule and design them so that they can be paid off inside that time frame. This enables them to continually access the latest and best capital goods. It also, ironically, slightly lowers their short- and medium-term profit margins, which is why most firms don't do it. Where it shines is in the long run, when their reputation for quality and fine tolerances keep repeat customers coming back even though the goods are more expensive.

Now, we take away WWII. Not only does Germany not get the shot in the arm given to it IOTL by the United States; it also has no need to develop the corporate culture that has kept its capital base so up to date over the last six decades. German firms ITTL, without either of those impetuses, will behave in much the manner that American, British, Canadian, or French firms do IOTL. It's capital plant, therefore, will look much less like it does IOTL and much more like America's does IOTL. It's education system will still have that technical bent, and it's engineers will be good. But the corporate culture that supports them with state-of-the-art capital goods and factories will never come to exist. So TTL will not see the near-constant updating and upgrading that OTL does. Germany's economy will look much more mixed, rather than having the focus on industry and manufacturing that was given to it by WWII. Follow my logic?


I follow you. Certainly, that are very good arguments, but, can't Germany find reason for modernisation because of isolation of it's market?
Surely, we can't know what will be relations of Germany and other european countries, but no reason to think that they will open it's markets to German products. So Germany must make top quality products.

And another thing.
Germany makes top quality products not because they have the latest technology/know how, they do it because that's the german way of doing things. In general. Germans make top quality products. And that isn't made in 1945.
So, they make top quality products because of german perfectionism and as a nescesary precondition for that is that they have best technology for production.
 

Typo

Banned
No, they don't modernize -as much- because they wouldn't have the motivation to if their entire industry wasn't destroyed by war and the Americans giving them money to rebuild everything up again. How difficult is this concept to understand for you.
Germany makes top quality products not because they have the latest technology/know how, they do it because that's the german way of doing things. In general. Germans make top quality products. And that isn't made in 1945.
So, they make top quality products because of german perfectionism
^.^
^.^
^.^
lol
And here comes the cultural supremacism out of the woodworks again

But I guess Bismarck does have industrialous trait, and the assembly plant they have is better than everyone else's generic factories.
 
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loughery111

Banned
Germany makes top quality products not because they have the latest technology/know how, they do it because that's the german way of doing things. In general. Germans make top quality products. And that isn't made in 1945.

What the hell is this, a game of Civilization IV or something?

Look, the point I'm trying to make is that the culture of wanting to make top quality, precisely engineered, technologically advanced products largely evolved after WWII. The German culture of which almost everyone in the world knows is one that didn't exist in the slightest a century ago and was barely in evidence 85 years ago. German corporate culture was forged in the fires of a competitive post-WWII competition for market share. They had to beat out the United States, the United Kingdom, and Canada, which collectively had some 60% of the world's industrial strength.

By way of an example, if you were to explain the meaning of the phrase "alles in ordnung" to a European as late as 1900, they would look at you as if you'd grown a second head and then burst out laughing. Why? Because that entire concept arose in the modern era, particularly during and after WWI. In a similar fashion, the German reputation for ultra-high quality engineering is new. It didn't exist a century ago. The Germans of that era had a reputation as researchers, scientists, physicists... not as the best engineers in the world. You take away WWII, they don't get that cultural trait foisted upon them by historical circumstance.

Also, Germany's market won't be isolated; the UK was committed to largely free trade with the Continent and especially with the United States. If it proposed trying to close off that trade, both Canada and Australia would have threatened to leave the Empire. They needed American trade. So free trade will remain largely intact as long as the UK or the US rule the waves.
 

Typo

Banned
What the hell is this, a game of Civilization IV or something?

Look, the point I'm trying to make is that the culture of wanting to make top quality, precisely engineered, technologically advanced products largely evolved after WWII. The German culture of which almost everyone in the world knows is one that didn't exist in the slightest a century ago and was barely in evidence 85 years ago. German corporate culture was forged in the fires of a competitive post-WWII competition for market share. They had to beat out the United States, the United Kingdom, and Canada, which collectively had some 60% of the world's industrial strength.

By way of an example, if you were to explain the meaning of the phrase "alles in ordnung" to a European as late as 1900, they would look at you as if you'd grown a second head and then burst out laughing. Why? Because that entire concept arose in the modern era, particularly during and after WWI. In a similar fashion, the German reputation for ultra-high quality engineering is new. It didn't exist a century ago. The Germans of that era had a reputation as researchers, scientists, physicists... not as the best engineers in the world. You take away WWII, they don't get that cultural trait foisted upon them by historical circumstance.

Also, Germany's market won't be isolated; the UK was committed to largely free trade with the Continent and especially with the United States. If it proposed trying to close off that trade, both Canada and Australia would have threatened to leave the Empire. They needed American trade. So free trade will remain largely intact as long as the UK or the US rule the waves.
No economics have nothing to do with this, the German assembly line let's you turn two more citizens into engineers than everyone else's factories. Combined with the industrial trait you can fast build forge->assembly line even after they get destroyed. and the extra wonder production and the greater chance of Great Engineer spawning means that even after your cities get destroyed you can still get some of the late game wonders. But if they weren't destroyed than Germany would have had more hammers over the course of the last 60 turns.
 
Honestly, I find the argument "they got their industry and infrastructure rebuilt from ground up" counter-intuitive, to say the least. You don't go and total your car in an accident that'll leave at least some of those involved crippled or dead, just so you can get a newer one, do you?
And I seriously doubt that, if you compare the costs and consequences of the two WWs vs the costs for the new industry/infrastructure, that you'd come out ahead with a positive balance. No matter if it's Germany or any other of the countries involved.

- Kelenas
I'm just eplaining the general argument. Not advocating it.
 
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BooNZ

Banned
What the hell is this, a game of Civilization IV or something?

Look, the point I'm trying to make is that the culture of wanting to make top quality, precisely engineered, technologically advanced products largely evolved after WWII. The German culture of which almost everyone in the world knows is one that didn't exist in the slightest a century ago and was barely in evidence 85 years ago. German corporate culture was forged in the fires of a competitive post-WWII competition for market share. They had to beat out the United States, the United Kingdom, and Canada, which collectively had some 60% of the world's industrial strength.

By way of an example, if you were to explain the meaning of the phrase "alles in ordnung" to a European as late as 1900, they would look at you as if you'd grown a second head and then burst out laughing. Why? Because that entire concept arose in the modern era, particularly during and after WWI. In a similar fashion, the German reputation for ultra-high quality engineering is new. It didn't exist a century ago. The Germans of that era had a reputation as researchers, scientists, physicists... not as the best engineers in the world. You take away WWII, they don't get that cultural trait foisted upon them by historical circumstance.

Also, Germany's market won't be isolated; the UK was committed to largely free trade with the Continent and especially with the United States. If it proposed trying to close off that trade, both Canada and Australia would have threatened to leave the Empire. They needed American trade. So free trade will remain largely intact as long as the UK or the US rule the waves.

Prior to WW1, Germany had developed the second largest industrial base in the world (after US), without the assistance of significant conflict. The global presence of German exports prior to WW1 had contributed to Anglo-German tensions. At that stage the German industrial base had grown rapidly and as it had grown, it made use of progressive industrial techniques and technologies.

While the UK was committed to free trade before WW1, the Germans enjoyed some measure of domestic protection/export support. At the some time, the US was protectionist with the highest trade tarrifs in the world. We should remember that a 100 years ago the US was not the paragon of virtue it is today...
 
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