German sneak attack on British fleet 1 Sep 1939?

Not wholly. You can regard them as mobile minefields - you can't intercept anything with a minefield, but you can get lucky with where it's laid.
 
Has this scenario ever been discussed here?

Was there any hope of Germany concentrating all of its air and naval forces on the British fleet and delivering the kind of destruction that would have made Operation Sealion feasable?
Nobody has yet explained the true variance in the forces here so I will outline it briefly. Not because you're dim-witted or anything but just to explain why you're getting such a dismissive response here.

In contrast to Machiavelli's list of German assets there, the Royal Navy in 1939 has 15 battleships and battlecruisers, several aircraft carriers, 60-odd cruisers, probably 175-200 destroyers, several dozen submarines, and basically an innumerable number of corvettes, small coastal patrol craft, minesweepers, etc., etc. It outnumbers the German navy by multiples, if not by an order of magnitude, in virtually every category of combat craft.

So you can see the problem, then. A clever tactical strike by a few of your ships can catch one or two RN ships unawares and out of position, for sure - and actually this happened repeatedly in the early years of the war -- but on the whole, you can't really just concentrate your naval force for one big battle in hopes of catching them by surprise, because the RN's fleet is simply so much larger. Even in a lopsided engagement, you're eventually going to run out of ships faster than they do.

Granted, most of the Royal Navy isn't in a single position or even in Britain at any given time, but there again that makes the challenge harder -- if your surprise strike does sink a few ships, they will simply recall enough from other theaters to rebalance their position accordingly, and then off we go.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Monthly Donor
^ can german subs of 1939 , keep up with home fleet if they are submerged ?
They can't keep up with the fleet on the surface.

The first boat that could keep up with a battle fleet (20+ knots) surfaced or submerged was the Nautilus.
 
They can't keep up with the fleet on the surface.

The first boat that could keep up with a battle fleet (20+ knots) surfaced or submerged was the Nautilus.

Not true, the British K-boats could do 24 knots on the surface. There was a problem with range (which going nuclear solved), but they could keep up in the North Sea area well enough.
The k-class was actually designed to work with the battle fleet.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Not true, the British K-boats could do 24 knots on the surface. There was a problem with range (which going nuclear solved), but they could keep up in the North Sea area well enough.
The k-class was actually designed to work with the battle fleet.
Did not know that.

Thanks for the correction.

Interesting design. Bizarre, but that happens a lot in the early days of ship type. More a true torpedo ship (at 1,900 ton surfaced) that could dip below the surface for a few miles than a submarine.
 
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^ can german subs of 1939 , keep up with home fleet if they are submerged ?

Nope. Class II subs that are the most numerous German sub in 1939 could do 7 knots submerged and 13 knots on the surface going full out. The old RN R class BBs could make 21 knots and could cruise at almost the full surfaced speed of a sub.

Through careful placement and some luck the subs managed to take out a few capitol ships. On a per sortie basis the Italians were more sucessful than the Germans in this. Think of the subs as 'smart mines' placed in small fields in the expected path of the enemy fleet. The HMS Eagle & HMS Barnham were two notable sucesses. But everytime the subs were out of position they had no hope of chasing down warships.
 
What was peacetime port security like at this time?
Also, how effective was British intelligence in 1939?

The intel services were good, the admirals use was not so much in using it. Churchill was of some value in this. He had a fairly good understanding of signal intel. ect.. and how intel should be fused and analyzed. In April 1940 the signals intel section warned the Scharnhorst & Geisneau had sortied into the North Sea. But, the warning was dismissed and the admirals at sea were not informed. The result was the loss of a carrier to surface ships & Churchill hammering hard on the Admirality.
 
The intel services were good, the admirals use was not so much in using it. Churchill was of some value in this. He had a fairly good understanding of signal intel. ect.. and how intel should be fused and analyzed. In April 1940 the signals intel section warned the Scharnhorst & Geisneau had sortied into the North Sea. But, the warning was dismissed and the admirals at sea were not informed. The result was the loss of a carrier to surface ships & Churchill hammering hard on the Admirality.

Who made the call not to inform the folks at sea?

How good was the British government, as well as the RN, at understanding what the KM was capable of doing or what they were in a position to do? In other words, if the KM was trying to position themselves to be able to launch a sneak attack would the Brits have noticed it? I’m talking about the ability and/or positioning to launch such an attack; I’m NOT talking about INTENT.
 
Who made the call not to inform the folks at sea?

I dont remember. Possiblly the home fleet commander?

How good was the British government, as well as the RN, at understanding what the KM was capable of doing or what they were in a position to do? In other words, if the KM was trying to position themselves to be able to launch a sneak attack would the Brits have noticed it? I’m talking about the ability and/or positioning to launch such an attack; I’m NOT talking about INTENT.

About all I can say it they sent most off the home ported ships in range to sea as the Polish crisis reached its... crisis point. A day or two ahead of the German attack. In the case of Scapa Flow I understand the movement started 29 August & the ships to leave were all departed before the end of the 30th. Those that were to continue to base at Scapa Flow assembled well to the west & did drills for several more days. So, and big raid arriving the morning of 1 September would find a empty anchorage.

To digress slightly. In October the RN did a show of force sortie into the North Sea. The Germans spotted it, from some stray radio transmissions & then a reconissance plane. The Luftwaffe sortied imeadiatly several dozen, then over 100 bombers. Despite a accurate location from the recon plane the navigation and search techniques of the bomber crews were so bad they failed to locate the Brit flotillia.
 

nbcman

Donor
I dont remember. Possiblly the home fleet commander?



About all I can say it they sent most off the home ported ships in range to sea as the Polish crisis reached its... crisis point. A day or two ahead of the German attack. In the case of Scapa Flow I understand the movement started 29 August & the ships to leave were all departed before the end of the 30th. Those that were to continue to base at Scapa Flow assembled well to the west & did drills for several more days. So, and big raid arriving the morning of 1 September would find a empty anchorage.

To digress slightly. In October the RN did a show of force sortie into the North Sea. The Germans spotted it, from some stray radio transmissions & then a reconissance plane. The Luftwaffe sortied imeadiatly several dozen, then over 100 bombers. Despite a accurate location from the recon plane the navigation and search techniques of the bomber crews were so bad they failed to locate the Brit flotillia.

This website has a day by day movement of the RN and some other navies
.

For example here are the movements for the last week or so in August 1939:

Thursday, 24 August

British Home waters - destroyers JERVIS, JACKAL, JUPITER, ECHO of the 7th Destroyer Flotilla departed Immingham for Dover.



Destroyer JUNO – commanded by Cdr W E Wilson completed. Following working up, she joined the 7th Destroyer Flotilla operating with the Humber Force.



German pocket battleship movements - DEUTSCHLAND sortied from Wilhelmshaven to raid in the North Atlantic. Fleet tanker WESTERWALD (10,845grt) had put to sea on the 22nd and was to rendezvous with DEUTSCHLAND south of Greenland.



U-boat movements - U.5, U.6, U.7 (Type IIA) departed for patrol in the Kattegat. They remained on patrol until 8 September.





Friday, 25 August



RN appointments - Rear Adm L E Holland vacated the post of Commanding Officer, 2nd Battle Squadron, Home Fleet and was named Commanding Officer of the 3rd Battle Squadron, Channel Force. Rear Adm H E C Blagrove was appointed to the command of 2nd Battle Squadron on this date.



British Home waters - aircraft carrier FURIOUS departed Portland escorted by destroyers BROKE, WANDERER, WHITEHALL, WITCH, and arrived at Rosyth on the 28th.



Light cruisers EFFINGHAM and EMERALD arrived at Scapa Flow from the Reserve Fleet.



Destroyers, JERVIS, JACKAL, JUPITER, ECHO arrived at Dover for exercises.



U-boat movements - U.9 and U.19 departed Wilhelmshaven for operations off the east coast of Scotland east of 00-00E arriving on station by the 29th.



U.13 departed Wilhelmshaven for minelaying operations in the North Sea off Orfordness.



U.24 (all Type IIB) arrived at Wilhelmshaven for operations in the North Sea. She departed the same day, but returned to base on the 31st for minelaying operations.



U.56 and U.58 (Type IIC) departed Wilhelmshaven for patrol in the Kattegat and off Denmark south of Norway, arriving on stations by the 29th.



British cruisers, Atlantic and Mediterranean - heavy cruiser EXETER departed Devonport for the South America Station via Freetown and Rio de Janiero.



Light cruisers DANAE, DAUNTLESS, DESPATCH (Capt Poland, Cdre 2/c, 9th Cruiser Squadron) and anti-aircraft ship COVENTRY departed Portsmouth at 1120 for Gibraltar. DANAE and COVENTRY arrived on the 28th. DANAE continued on to Freetown. COVENTRY headed for Malta, arriving on the 31st following several days of drills, departed the same day and reached Alexandria on 3 September. DAUNTLESS and DESPATCH reached Gibraltar on the 29th, and on the 2 September, in company with light cruiser DURBAN proceeded to Freetown.



Light cruiser COLOMBO (Cdre, 11th Cruiser Squadron) departed Plymouth and arrived at Gibraltar on the 29th.





Saturday, 26 August



British cruisers and destroyers, Home waters and Atlantic - light cruisers DIOMEDE, CALEDON, CALYPSO, CARDIFF, DRAGON, arrived at Scapa Flow from the Reserve Fleet. Light cruiser DUNEDIN, also from the Reserve Fleet, arrived on the 27th.



Destroyer KEMPENFELT and the 18th Destroyer Flotilla, less ACHERON and ANTELOPE, arrived at Portland for duty with the Channel Force.



Heavy cruiser CUMBERLAND departed Scapa Flow for Plymouth in preparation for proceeding to the South Atlantic, arriving at Plymouth on the 28th.



Destroyers HAVOCK and HOTSPUR departed Sheerness after an abbreviated refitting. They joined HUNTER and HYPERION at sea, after they had departed Plymouth and Portsmouth respectively on the 27th. Returning to the Mediterranean Fleet, the four destroyers arrived at Gibraltar on the 29th, but were then diverted to the Freetown command.



German warship movements, Baltic - light cruiser NÜRNBERG and destroyers GEORG THIELE, MAX SCHULTZ, RICHARD BEITZEN, were on patrol at the western end of the Baltic. Early on the 27th, torpedo boat TIGER was lost in an accidental collision with the MAX SCHULTZ northeast of Bornholm Island off Christianso in the Baltic. Two crewmen on the torpedo boat were killed and six seriously injured. SCHULTZ was taken in tow by THIELE which was later relieved by tugs JOMSBERG and TAIFUN. Tugs STORM and NORDER also joined and SCHULTZ arrived at Stettin where she was under repair until the end of September.



U-boat movements - the U-Boat Training Flotilla (U.1-U.8, U.10, U.11, U.25, U.36) suspended training duties in preparation for war operations.



South Atlantic - heavy cruiser EXETER joined light cruisers COLOMBO and DAUNTLESS, escorting British liner DUNERA (11,162grt). Off Cape St Vincent on the 28th, EXETER was detached to proceed to Rio de Janiero, via Cape Verde Islands.





Sunday, 27 August



English Channel - light cruisers CARADOC, CERES and destroyer ANTELOPE arrived at Portland for duty with the Channel Force.



Western Approaches - battleships RESOLUTION and REVENGE with destroyers KEMPENFELT, ACASTA, ACHATES, ARDENT, ARROW departed Portland at 0815 to carry out a reconnaissance in the Western Approaches. By 2005 they had reached longitude 6°W and turned back. Before entering harbour, RESOLUTION carried out 15in and 6in throw off practice. They arrived back at Portland at 1130 on the 28th.





Monday, 28 August



British cruiser movements - light cruisers CAPETOWN sailed from Plymouth and DURBAN from Portsmouth for Gibraltar where they arrived on 1 September.



German merchant shipping - liner NEW YORK (22,337grt) departed New York for Murmansk where she arrived safely on 7 September.





Tuesday, 29 August



Dover Straits - destroyer JERSEY encountered German steamer BREMERHAVEN (5355grt), which had departed El Ferrol on the 27th, near the South Goodwins Lightship. Nothing came of the encounter and BREMERHAVEN arrived in the Weser the next day.



U-boat movements - U.26 (Type IA) departed Wilhelmshaven and U.53 (Type VIIB) departed Kiel for minelaying missions off Portland. Flotilla Commander KKpt Ernst Sobe was aboard U.53 in tactical command.



Pacific - New Zealand light cruiser ACHILLES departed Auckland for the West Indies and her war station at Balboa.



German steamer TACOMA (8268grt) departed Libertad, San Salvador, flying the Swedish flag. She arrived at Talcuhuana, the commercial seaport of Concepcion, Chile on 10 September.





Wednesday, 30 August



Western Atlantic - German liner BREMEN (51,656grt) departed New York Harbour and evaded heavy cruiser BERWICK and Australian light cruiser PERTH which were patrolling off the US east coast outside territorial limits.



BERWICK had departed Newport, Rhode Island on the 29th and was calling at Bar Harbour, Maine, but failed to make contact with BREMEN. This was in spite of efforts to delay the German ship in harbour until she could be in a position to intercept.



British Home waters - battlecruisers HOOD and REPULSE departed Rosyth, via Invergordon for Scapa Flow where they arrived later that day.



Destroyers JERVIS, JAVELIN, JUPITER, ECHO departed Dover for Grimsby, where they arrived on the 31st.



Polish destroyers sail for Britain - BLYSKAWICA, BURZA, GROM departed Gdynia in Operation "Pekin." It had been decided to get them away from Poland rather than have them destroyed without any opportunity to do damage in return. They were ordered that should German ships be encountered while en route, BURZA, the oldest of the three, would fight a delaying action and allow the other two to escape. Shortly after leaving port, they were sighted by U.31 north of Hela.



Still on the 30th, the destroyers first encountered destroyers BRUNO HEINEMANN, ERICH STEINBRINCK, FRIEDRICH ECKHOLDT, FRIEDRICH IHN on patrol between Bornholm and the Bay of Danzig and then, on the 31st, light cruiser KÖNIGSBERG near Falsterbo Light Vessel. Although the Polish and German ships trained their guns on each other, neither opened fire. The last sighting was by U.6 on Kattegat patrol later on the morning of the 31st, but contact was soon lost. Otherwise, the passage was uneventful!



The Polish ships were joined by destroyers WALLACE and WANDERER 30 miles off May Island, and they all arrived safely at Leith in the Firth of Forth at 1730 on 1 September. From there, the Polish destroyers departed Rosyth on 6 September and arrived at Plymouth on the 9th.



German Home waters - Following her contact with the Polish destroyers, KÖNIGSBERG proceeded to Wilhelmshaven via the Kiel Canal for operations in the North Sea.

U-boat movements – U.1, U.3, U.4 (Type IIA )and U.36 (Type VIIA) of the U-Boat Training Flotilla departed Kiel and arrived at Wilhelmshaven the next day for operations in the North Sea.



U.6 (Type IIA) departed Kiel for operations in the Baltic.



U.14 (Type IIB) departed Memel for operations off the Polish coast.



Atlantic - light cruiser DURBAN departed Plymouth for Gibraltar.



Destroyers HYPERION, HAVOCK, HOTSPUR, HUNTER departed Gibraltar for duty at Freetown, arriving on 3 September.



Pacific - light cruiser LEANDER departed Auckland to land troops at Fanning Island, the site of the Trans-Pacific submarine telegraph cable station. The troops were landed on 13 September and LEANDER returned to Auckland.





Thursday, 31 August



Home Fleet - departed Scapa Flow at 1800 with battleships NELSON, RODNEY, ROYAL OAK, ROYAL SOVEREIGN, aircraft carrier ARK ROYAL, light cruisers CALYPSO, CALEDON, DIOMEDE, DRAGON of the 7th Cruiser Squadron, EFFINGHAM, CARDIFF, DUNEDIN, EMERALD of the 12th Cruiser Squadron, AURORA, BELFAST, SHEFFIELD of the 18th Cruiser Squadron, and destroyers FAULKNOR, FAME, FEARLESS, FIREDRAKE, FORESTER, FORTUNE, FOXHOUND, FURY of the 8th Destroyer Flotilla. The Fleet deployed in the North Sea between the Orkneys and Norway.



Battlecruisers HOOD, REPULSE and Tribal-class destroyers SOMALI, ASHANTI, BEDOUIN, ESKIMO, MASHONA, MATABELE, PUNJABI, TARTAR of the 6th Destroyer Flotilla departed Scapa Flow for patrol off the Skagerrak. BEDOUIN had mechanical defects and returned to Scapa Flow for repairs. Home Fleet returned to Scapa Flow on 6 September.



British Home waters - light cruiser EDINBURGH departed Glasgow after docking and arrived at Scapa Flow on 1 September.



U-boat movements – Three Type IIB boats sailed from Wilhelmshaven - U.15 for minelaying operations in the North Sea off Flamborough, U.17 for minelaying in Dover Strait off the Downs, and U.20 to patrol between Utsire and Kristiansand.



U.59 (Type IIC) departed Heligoland to operate in the Dogger Bank area.



Mediterranean - French convoy R.3 departed Marseilles with CYRNOS, EL D'JEZAIR, GENERAL BONAPARTE, ÎLE DE BEAUTÉ, PASCAL PAOLI, SAMPIERO CORSO, VILLE D'AJACCIO for Oran.



The 2nd Squadron of battleships PROVENCE, BRETAGNE, LORRAINE with destroyers LE PALME, LE MARS, TEMPÊTE of the 1st Destroyer Division, LA RAILLEUSE, LE FORTUNE, SIMOUN of the 3rd Destroyer Division, and TORNADE, TRAMONTANE, TYPHON of the 7th Destroyer Division departed Toulon to escort the convoy.



The 3rd Squadron of heavy cruisers ALGÉRIE, COLBERT, DUQUESNE, FOCH with large destroyers CHEVALIER PAUL, TARTU, VAUQUELIN of the 5th Large Destroyer Division and GERFAUT, VAUTOUR of the 7th Large Destroyer Division departed Toulon to cover the convoy from surface interference.



The 2nd Squadron arrived at Oran with the convoy on 2 September and then carried on for Gibraltar, arriving on the 3rd. The 3rd Squadron arrived back at Toulon on the 2nd.



Red Sea - destroyers AFRIDI, GURKHA, MOHAWK, SIKH departed Port Said and arrived at Suez for operations in the Red Sea.



South Atlantic - heavy cruiser CUMBERLAND departed Plymouth en route to the South America Station.

And the first few days of September 1939:

Friday, 1 September



Germany invaded Poland



Baltic - the first shots of the war were fired by German battleship SCHLESWIG HOLSTEIN at the Polish Gdansk (Danzig) fortifications of Westerplatte. She had arrived six days earlier when Hitler seized the Polish port of Gdansk for Germany, renaming it Danzig.



German naval forces - for the invasion of Poland were under the Command of Naval Group Command East (Adm Conrad Albrecht):



Commander Reconnaissance Force (Vize Adm Hermann Densch) had under his command light cruisers KÖLN, LEIPZIG, NÜRNBERG.



Officer Commanding Torpedo Boats (Konter Adm Gunther Lutjens) commanded destroyers BERND VON ARNIM, BRUNO HEINEMANN, ERICH STEINBRINCK, FRIEDRICH ECKHOLDT, FRIEDRICH IHN, GEORG THIELE, LEBERECHT MAAS, RICHARD BEITZEN, WOLFGANG ZENKER and the 1st MTB Flotilla with S.10, S.11, S.12, S.13, S.18, S.19 and depot ship TSINGTAU.



BRUNO HEINEMANN had a water feed pump break down and was forced to withdraw for repairs at Wilhelmshaven.



Officer Commanding Minesweepers (KptzS Friedrich Ruge in old torpedo boat T.196) commanded escort ships F.7, F.8, F.9, F.10, the 1st Minesweeping Flotilla with minesweepers M.1, M.3, M.4, M.5, M.7, M.111, M.132, the Experimental Barrage Command with old minesweepers ARKONA, NAUTILUS, OTTO BRAUN, PELIKAN, SUNDEWALL and the 3rd Motor Minesweeping Flotilla with motor minesweepers R.33, R.34, R.35, R.36, R.38, R.39, R.40.



German submarine forces - Officer Commanding U-boats East (FKpt Oskar Schomburg) commanded U.5, U.6, U.7, U.14, U.18, U.22, U.31, U.32, U.35, U.57.



U.5, U.6, and U.7 patrolled the Kattegat near Laeso.



U.22 patrolled inside the Irben Strait.



U.31, U.32, U.35 were off the Gulf of Danzig for minelaying and U.14 and U.18 on patrol off the Gulf of Danzig.



U.57 patrolled off Libau.



On the 2nd, U.22 and U.57 were withdrawn to provide relief for the other patrols. Both boats proceeded to Memel for refuelling, then departed on the 3rd. U.57 arrived at Kiel on the 5th and departed that day for patrol off Laeso.



On the 7th, the Gulf of Danzig U-boats were ordered to the North Sea.



On the 10th, the Baltic patrols were cancelled and the submarines returned to patrols and the U-boat Training School.



Polish naval operations - the Polish Fleet sortied from Gdynia, but not before Polish torpedo boat MAZUR was sunk in German air attacks. Destroyer WICHER, minelayer GRYF, and minesweepers CZAJKA, CZAPLA, JASKOLKA, MEWA, RYBITWA, ZURAW were able to leave port to conduct the mining of Gdansk Bay, code named Exercise RURKA.



In Puck Bay, near Gdynia, the Polish force was attacked by German dive bombers, and minelayer GRYF and minesweeper MEWA seriously damaged. GRYF was forced to jettison her mines to prevent the explosion of those still on deck and was unable to begin Exercise RURKA. MEWA was towed to Hela by RYBITWA.



Submarines ORZEL and WILK departed Gdynia for patrol in the Gulf of Gdansk and RYS, SEP, ZBIK also sailed from Gdynia for patrol in Puck Bay off Hela to attack German surface ships.

WILK attacked German destroyer ERICH STEINBRINCK unsuccessfully and was then damaged by depth charges dropped by her and FRIEDRICH IHN, but was able to continue on patrol.

British Home waters - battleship RAMILLIES departed Scapa Flow for escort duties from Devonport.



Aircraft carrier COURAGEOUS with destroyer STURDY, after departing Portsmouth on 31 August, arrived at Portland at 1700. Destroyers ARROW arrived there at 1550, ACASTA, which had departed Portland at 0640 that morning, and ANTHONY arrived at 1615, and ACHATES at 1745.



Aircraft carrier HERMES, sailing from Plymouth, arrived at Portland at 2015, and destroyer ACHERON on the 2nd. Here they joined destroyer ANTELOPE which was already at Portland.



Central and South Atlantic – Destroyers DOUGLAS and WISHART departed Gibraltar for patrol. French destroyer BASQUE also left Gibraltar.



Heavy cruiser EXETER arrived at Freetown from Devonport and later the same day, departed for Cape Verde Island.



Heavy cruiser CUMBERLAND, which had departed Plymouth on 31 August after EXETER, was also en route for Freetown.



Mediterranean - destroyer ICARUS was damaged in collision with Greek steamer MICHALIS (4680grt) off Alexandria, while they were alongside each other at sea. ICARUS's hull was stove in, and she and the Greek steamer were escorted to Alexandria by destroyer INTREPID. Following temporary repairs, ICARUS proceeded on the 10th for repairs at Malta completing on 8 October.





Saturday, 2 September



British Home waters - battlecruiser RENOWN escorted by destroyer SARDONYX departed Portsmouth for Scapa Flow, arriving on the 4th.



Aircraft carrier COURAGEOUS escorted by destroyer STURDY departed Portland before dawn, and arrived at Plymouth later that day.



Destroyer ENCOUNTER departed Portland at 0545 and arrived at Plymouth.



Baltic - Polish naval auxiliary ships GYDNIE (538grt) and GDANSK (538grt) were sunk by German bombing in the Gulf of Gdansk.



Polish submarine SEP unsuccessfully attacked German destroyer FRIEDRICH IHN at 1238 with one torpedo, north of Heisternest. SEP was damaged in the counterattack, but able to continue on patrol.



German waters - Commander Reconnaissance Forces with light cruisers KÖLN, LEIPZIG, NÜRNBERG in the Baltic was ordered to the North Sea.



U-boat movements - U.31, U.32, and U.35 were in the Baltic near Hela to mine the approaches to the Gulf of Danzig. However, the escape of the Polish destroyers made these operations unnecessary and they were transferred from the Baltic to the Atlantic, first arriving at Wilhelmshaven. From there:



U.32 set out on patrol on the 5th,



U.31 and U.35 on the 9th,



U.31 and U.35 were ordered to patrol areas west and south of England, respectively, and U.32 to lay mines off the Bristol Channel on the 17th.



French Force de Raid, Atlantic - the Brest-based Force of battlecruisers DUNKERQUE, STRASBOURG, light cruisers GEORGES LEYGUES, GLOIRE, MONTCALM and large destroyers L'AUDACIEUX, LE FANTASQUE, LE MALIN, LE TERRIBLE, LE TRIOMPHANT, L'INDOMPTABLE, MOGADOR, VOLTA was ordered to Casablanca at high speed to protect the North African ports from attack from the sea, departing at 2000/2nd. The 2nd Destroyer Division of destroyers FOUGUEUX, FRONDEUR, L'ADROIT and 5th Division BRESTOIS, BOULONNNAIS, FOUDROYANT left Brest on the 2nd as local escort and to carry out an anti-submarine sweep in the local approaches. The local escort returned to Brest on the 3rd.



Minelaying cruiser LA TOUR D'AUVERGNE (former PLUTON), also at Brest, sailed with the Force de Raid to lay a defensive minefield off the Moroccan coast. She was detached on the 4th and arrived, unescorted, at Casablanca on the 5th, where she remained until her loss on the 13th.



When intelligence revealed the threat did not exist, the operations were cancelled and the forces arrived back at Brest at 0740 on the 6th. They received an additional escort from the 4th Destroyer Division with destroyers BOURRASQUE, ORAGE, OURAGAN, which departed Brest on the 5th.



French naval forces, Mediterranean - The French 2nd Second Squadron, battleships PROVENCE, BRETAGNE, LORRAINE with the nine destroyers of the 1st Destroyer Flotilla, which had departed Toulon 31 August, arrived at Oran on the 2nd. The Squadron carried on and arrived at Gibraltar on the 3rd.



The French 3rd Squadron arrived back at Toulon on the 2nd after covering convoy R.3.



Later that day, heavy cruisers, ALGÉRIE, COLBERT, DUPLEIX, FOCH, TOURVILLE with destroyers CHEVALIER PAUL, TARTU, VAUQUELIN of the 5th Large Destroyer Division, GERFAUT and VAUTOUR of the 7th Large Division, and CASSARD, KERSAINT,MAILLÉ BRÉZÉ of the 9th Large Division departed Toulon and arrived at Oran on the 3rd.



Mediterranean - Light cruiser ARETHUSA and the 3rd Destroyer Flotilla (less IMOGEN and ICARUS) departed Alexandria to patrol between Cape Matapan and Crete.



The destroyers arrived at Malta on the 4th, where they joined IMOGEN which earlier had been sent to Marseilles with dispatches, reaching Malta on the 3rd. All the destroyers then carried on to Gibraltar, arriving on the 5th to operate out of there on anti-submarine duties in the Atlantic.



Central and South Atlantic - Convoy AB.1 of British tankers BRITISH ARDOUR (7124grt, Cdre Mr H Fulcher), BRITISH LOYALTY (6993grt), BRITISH PRINCESS (7019grt), BRITISH MOTORIST (6891grt), BRITISH PROGRESS (4581grt) and steamers CITY OF HEREFORD (5105grt), CITY OF SHANGHAI (5828grt) ROWANBANK (5102grt) departed Gibraltar for Capetown. BRITISH FAITH (6955grt) had broken down just after weighing anchor and did not proceed with the convoy.



Light cruisers DAUNTLESS and DESPATCH (9th Cruiser Squadron) departed Gibraltar at 1930 and proceeded with the convoy.



Destroyers DOUGLAS, WATCHMAN, WISHART, WRESTLER of the 13th Destroyer Flotilla joined the convoy at 2200/2nd and carried out anti-submarine sweeps, before leaving at 0805/3rd.



Light cruiser DURBAN departed Gibraltar for Freetown where she arrived on the 8th with seaplane tender ALBATROSS.



DAUNTLESS was detached on the 11th and arrived at Freetown on the 13th.



On the 13th DESPATCH turned the convoy over to DURBAN which had departed Freetown on the 12th.

DESPATCH reached Freetown on the 14th. DURBAN reached Capetown on the 29th.



Indian Ocean - destroyers DECOY, DEFENDER, DELIGHT, DUCHESS which had departed Hong Kong on 28 August, left Singapore on the 2nd en route to join the Mediterranean Fleet.



Pacific - New Zealand light cruiser ACHILLES en route to the West Indies from New Zealand received orders to patrol off the west coast of South America.





Sunday, 3 September



Declarations of war - Great Britain and France declared war on Germany at 1115 and 1700 respectively. Australia, New Zealand, and British India also declared war.



Home Fleet, including German shipping - Adm Forbes was some 400 miles west of the Hebrides having just completed a sweep to the west to cover the trade routes with his battlefleet and destroyers were SOMALI, ASHANTI, BEDOUIN (defects corrected), ESKIMO, PUNJABI, TARTAR of the 6th Destroyer Flotilla and FAULKNOR, FEARLESS, FIREDRAKE, FORTUNE, FOXHOUND of the 8th Flotilla. ASHANTI and SOMALI had refuelled at Scapa Flow on the 2nd and the rest of the destroyers departed earlier on the 3rd, also after refuelling at Scapa.



Destroyers MASHONA and MATABELE of the 6th Flotilla and FAME, FORESIGHT, FORESTER, FURY of the 8th departed Scapa Flow that evening to join Forbes at sea., FORESTER and FURY carried out anti-submarine attacks at 2140, WNW of Rockall in 58-53N, 18-42W.



Adm Forbes was also looking for German liner BREMEN (51,656grt) which was known to have departed New York on 30 August. However, BREMEN evaded British patrols and arrived at Murmansk on the 6th.



Destroyer SOMALI did capture German steamer HANNAH BOGE (2372grt) which had departed Shediac Bay in New Brunswick on 26 August. She was intercepted at 63‑20N, 16‑35W, taken to Kirkwall, arriving on the 5th, and later renamed CROWN ARUN in British service.



That evening at 1840, on report of German warships leaving Schillig Roads, the Home Fleet was deployed to the east of the Fair Isle Channel, arriving on station at 0600 on the 5th.



During the evening of 3 September, destroyer ESKIMO experienced a turbine problem and was returning to Scapa Flow alone when she encountered FAULKNOR, FIREDRAKE and FOXHOUND. She was at first taken for German, but no shots were fired and the encounter ended uneventfully. ESKIMO safely arrived at Scapa Flow and the defects were corrected on the 11th.



Loss of British liner Athenia - U.30 torpedoed ATHENIA (13,581grt) south of Rockall Bank in 56‑44N, 14‑05W. Soon on the scene were destroyers ELECTRA, ESCORT, American steamer CITY OF FLINT (4963grt), Norwegian steamer KNUTE NELSON (5749grt), Swedish pleasure yacht SOUTHERN CROSS.



Lost with ATHENIA, which sank on the 4th, were 93 passengers and 19 crew members. The 376 survivors were picked up by SOUTHERN CROSS and of these, 220 were transferred to CITY OF FLINT and the other 156 to the destroyers.



Adm Forbes had also dispatched destroyer FAME from his screen at 2300 to assist. When she was not needed to lift survivors, FAME carried out anti-submarine sweeps in the area.



KNUTE NELSON took the survivors to Galway and the rest were taken to Greenock.



CITY OF FLINT later took 223 American survivors to Halifax, arriving on the 13th, and escorted into port by US Coast Guard cutters BIBB (WPG.31) and CAMPBELL (WPG.32).



British northern waters - battleship ROYAL SOVEREIGN arrived at Scapa Flow at 1030/3rd, escorted by destroyers FAULKNOR, FORTUNE, ESKIMO, TARTAR.



Destroyer VALOROUS and sloop ENCHANTRESS departed Rosyth on the 2nd for patrol in the Pentland Firth.



British east coast - coastal minelayer PLOVER laid mines off Bass Rock in the Firth of Forth in Operation BRM.



Destroyers BROKE, WANDERER, WHITEHALL of the 15th Destroyer Flotilla departed Rosyth for patrol on the 1st. WANDERER and WHITEHALL carried out an anti-submarine sweep off Blyth, both destroyers arriving at Scapa Flow on the 4th.



German trawler SOPHIE BUSSE (215grt) was seized by British forces at Grimsby and renamed ELSIE CAM in British service.



Destroyer WITCH, 17th Flotilla departed Rosyth for Harwich on 31 August. (30th Destroyer Division, 17th Flotilla was at Milford Haven for escort duties.)



Escort vessel/destroyer WHITLEY and sloop PELICAN departed Harwich on the 3rd



German steamer POMONA (3457grt) was seized by British forces at London. Although the crew set her on fire, the ship was saved and renamed EMPIRE MERCHANT in British service.



Humber Force - light cruisers GLASGOW, SOUTHAMPTON and destroyers JERVIS, JACKAL, JAVELIN, JERSEY had departed the Humber on the 1st and were sweeping off the Norwegian coast for German shipping.



Destroyers JANUS and JUNO arrived in the Humber for operations on the 3rd after working up.



Destroyer JUPITER was at Grimsby repairing defects and arrived at Rosyth on the 6th.



The Humber Force arrived at Rosyth on the 7th after this patrol.



British North Sea submarine patrols - began off Horn Reef, in the approaches to the Kiel Canal and Wilhelmshaven, and on the extension of the Montrose-Obrestad air patrol line - the last sixty miles of which was beyond the range of the Anson aircraft then in service.



Operating off the Norwegian coast and stationed twelve miles apart were 2nd Flotilla submarines SEAHORSE, which had departed from Dundee on 24 August, SPEARFISH from Portland on 25 August, STURGEON from Portland on 27 August, SWORDFISH, also from Dundee.



SPEARFISH was attacked by a U-boat on the 3rd but dived when torpedo tracks were seen and escaped unharmed.



STURGEON was bombed by friendly aircraft in 56-34N, 01-04W at 1620 and 1642/4th.



SEAHORSE was also attacked by friendly aircraft, a RAF Coastal Command Anson of 233 Squadron, east of Dundee, at 2007/5th. She sustained minor damage, a claim made by the aircraft, but the Anson herself crashed into the River Eden because of fuel leaking from a damaged tank. The crew were rescued from their dinghy.



Submarines STERLET, OXLEY, and TRITON departed Dundee on patrol on 3, 4, and 5 September, respectively.



Submarines H.32, L.26, L.27, UNDINE, UNITY, URSULA of the 6th Flotilla departed Blyth on 31 August for patrols in the Heligoland Bight, being withdrawn for refuelling at dusk on the 11th and arriving back at Blyth after dawn on the 13th.



Danish waters - Danish fishing vessel NORDSTRAND (30grt) was sunk 70 miles west of Horn Reef Light by a mine.



German waters - after being arrested for a debt on 28 August, steamer NAPHTHA SHIPPER (5897grt) was seized by German forces at Hamburg and renamed ALTENGAMME in German service.



Baltic - U.14 attacked Polish submarine SEP south of Aland Island in the Baltic without success. U.18 also encountered a Polish boat on the 3rd, but was unable to attack.



Polish destroyer WICHER and minelayer GRYF, along with other smaller Polish units, were anchored at Hela, when they were attacked and damaged by German destroyers LEBERECHT MAAS and WOLFGANG ZENKER. MAAS sustained some damage and four dead from a shore based battery hit and the German ships were forced to withdraw without destroying the Polish ships. MAAS was repaired at Swinemünde, completing on the 10th and Norwegian steamer BJORNVIK (812grt) was damaged by the German ships gunfire at Gdynia. Failing to deal with the Polish ships, the German destroyers called in the Luftwaffe which sank WICHER, GRYF, minesweeper MEWA, and gunboat GENERAL HALLER two hours later. German forces later raided GRYF, which was sunk as a target ship ten miles north of Gydnia.



German MTB S.23 sank Polish pilot vessel LLOYD BYDGOSKI (80grt) at 54-35N, 19-08E near Hela.



Polish submarine WILK laid twenty mines east of Hela at 54-31N, 18-48E.



German minelaying operations - Beginning on the 3rd and continuing through to the 17th, German light cruisers EMDEN, KÖLN, KÖNIGSBERG, LEIPZIG, NÜRNBERG and sloop GRILLE covered minelaying operations from Terschelling 150 miles northward into the Heligoland Bight.



Destroyer HANS LODY was damaged on the 4th by an explosion of her anti-sweep device while loading mines. Her stern was damaged.



The first operation departed late on the 4th with three groups: First group – KÖLN, KÖNIGSBERG and destroyers DIETHER VON ROEDER and HANS LÜDEMAN; second group - sloop GRILLE with destroyers HERMANN KÜNNE and KARL GALSTER; third group - minelayers COBRA and ROLAND with destroyers ERICH GIESE and THEODOR RIEDEL.



Minefield F (Martha Hans) was laid by COBRA, ROLAND, GIESE and RIEDEL from Cuxhaven on the 4th, where they returned after the operation.



Minefield A (Martha Ida) was also laid COBRA, ROLAND, GIESE and RIEDEL sailing from Cuxhaven on the 5th.



Two barrages of Martha Gustav were laid on the 8th by COBRA and ROLAND, this time with destroyer FRIEDRICH IHN. After the operation, the ships proceeded to Emden.



Minefield B (Martha Eins), was laid on the 13th by minelayers COBRA, KAISER, ROLAND from Wilhelmshaven and by HANSESTADT DANZIG with destroyers BERND VON ARNIM, FRIEDRICH ECKHOLDT, THEODOR RIEDEL. Torpedo boats of the 6th Flotilla escorted the operation.



Minefield C (Martha Zwei), was laid on the 15th by COBRA, HANSESTADT DANZIG, KAISER, ROLAND, and destroyers ARNIM, STEINBRINCK, ECKHOLDT, RIEDEL with Torpedo and S-boats screening the operation.



Minefield G (Martha Drei), was laid on the 17th by COBRA and HANSESTADT DANZIG, escorted by torpedo boats of the 6th Flotilla.



U-boat operations - U.12, U.36, U.56, U.59, U.58 were on a patrol line off Great Fisher Bank and U.13, U.15, U.17, U.21, U.23 in the southern North Sea.



U.16, which departed Wilhelmshaven on the 2nd, laid mines in Tees Bay off Hartlepool on the 5th. Before returning to Wilhelmshaven on the 8th, she reconnoitred the approaches to Scapa Flow in the Pentland Firth.



U.20 was on passage for patrol in the northern North Sea off Utsire.



U.23, off Flamborough to lay mines, was recalled to Wilhelmshaven before the minefield was laid. They were laid by U.15 on the 6th.



U.24 had departed Wilhelmshaven on the 2nd to lay mines off Dunkirk, but the operation was cancelled, and she returned to Kiel on the 5th.



Minelaying off Dover and Calais had already been cancelled due to shortage of boats.



Dover Straits - destroyers CODRINGTON, BASILISK, BEAGLE, BLANCHE, BOADICEA, BOREAS, BRAZEN, BRILLIANT departed Dover on 31 August for patrol in the English Channel. The patrols were divided into two sectors - a north patrol area between Goodwin Sands and Sandetti Bank, and a south patrol area between the South Goodwins and Ruytingen Bank.



English Channel - in the Western Approaches Command, destroyers ESCORT and ELECTRA of the 12th Destroyer Flotilla departed Portland for patrol on the 2nd. ENCOUNTER departed Portland on the 2nd to join sister ship ECLIPSE at Plymouth, and EXMOUTH and ESCAPADE, also of the 12th Flotilla departed Portland on the 3rd.



Destroyer KEITH, 17th Destroyer Flotilla departed Plymouth on the 3rd.



French Channel coast - destroyers MALCOLM, VANSITTART, WIVERN, 16th Flotilla from Portsmouth arrived at Le Havre on the 3rd.



Central and South Atlantic - light cruisers CAPETOWN and COLOMBO departed Gibraltar for patrol west of Portugal in the area of 38N, 20W, and arrived back on the 12th.



Light cruiser DANAE departed Freetown for Simonstown, arriving on the 11th.



Light cruiser AJAX sailed from Rio de Janiero on 30 August and on the 3rd in 33‑30S, 53‑30W captured German steamer OLINDA (4576grt) which had departed Montevideo on the 2nd. As AJAX could not spare a prize crew, OLINDA was sunk with scuttling charges after the crew was placed aboard British tanker SAN GERALDO (12,915grt). AJAX had the distinction of firing the first British shots of the war.



Australian Navy - heavy cruiser CANBERRA departed Garden Island, Sydney for patrol late on the 2nd, followed by light cruiser HOBART and destroyer VOYAGER on the 3rd. HOBART patrolled the trade route between Gabo Island and Wilson's Promontory and VOYAGER in the vicinity of Cape Howe.



Destroyer VENDETTA, also after departing Garden Island, and on patrol 100 miles east of Port Stephens sighted steamer SPEYBANK (5154grt).



Destroyer VAMPIRE was on patrol off Cape Otway looking for Italian steamer ROMOLO (9780grt) which later arrived at Brisbane.



Sloops SWAN and YARRA were on anti-submarine patrol off Sydney.





Monday, 4 September



Western Atlantic - German steamer CHRISTOPH V DOORNUM (3751grt) was seized by Canadian forces at Botwood, Newfoundland, and renamed EMPIRE COMMERCE in British service.



Faeroes - destroyer FORTUNE attacked a submarine contact 30 miles south of Munken Rock in 61-11N, 07-39W.



British northern waters - battleships ROYAL OAK and ROYAL SOVEREIGN departed Scapa Flow, escorted by destroyers BROKE WANDERER, WHITEWALL for patrol in the North Sea.



WANDERER attacked a submarine contact at 1945, 90 miles east of the Orkneys, southeast of Sumburgh Head in 59-23N, 00-11W. WHITEHALL rejoined the escort at 1128/5th.



Destroyers FORESIGHT, FORESTER, FURY departed Scapa Flow on the 5th and joined the battleships at 1330/6th.



The force arrived back at Scapa Flow at 1709/6th.



British east coast - Destroyer JACKAL attacked a submarine contact NE of Flamborough Head in 54-29N, 00-05E.



U.13 laid mines off Orfordness during the night of 4/5 September. Two merchant ships were sunk and one damaged in this field. U.17 laid mines in the Downs.



Norwegian waters - German coaster LIANNE (125grt) was lost between Graverne, Sweden, and Hamburg about this time. She reportedly scuttled herself after sighting British light cruisers GLASGOW and SOUTHAMPTON sweeping in the area. However, it appears she was lost in a German minefield on the 7th, as reported by Greek steamer KOSTI (3933grt) herself damaged earlier in the same field. There were no survivors from LIANNE. (Corrections thanks to Mark Viglietti)



German steamer JOHANNES MOLKENBUHR (5294grt) was intercepted by SOUTHAMPTON and scuttled herself 17 miles west of Stadlandet in 61‑40N, 03‑51E. Destroyer JERVIS took off the crew, landing them at Invergordon on the 6th, while JERSEY finished off the sinking ship.



German waters - U.3 and U.4 departed Wilhelmshaven for patrol in the Skagerrak, and U.21 and U.23 arrived back.



Destroyers assigned to the Eastern Area for the Polish campaign transferred to the North Sea to cover minelayers laying the "West Wall" minefield in the Heligoland Bight.



German MTB S.17 of the 2nd Flotilla was badly damaged by rough seas during North Sea operations, paid off on the 8th and used for spares. A number of other S-boats were less severely damaged in these operations.



RAF attacks on German naval units – were carried out at Wilhelmshaven and Brunsbüttel. Five Blenheims each of Nos 107, 110, and 139 Squadrons and six Wellington bombers each of Nos 49 and 83 targetted Schillig Roads, while six Wellingtons of 9 Squadron and eight from 149 Squadron targetted Brunsbüttel.



Battleships SCHARNHORST and GNEISENAU at Brunsbüttel were attacked but escaped any damage.



At Wilhelmshaven, light cruiser EMDEN, just entering port followed by U.23, was damaged by splinters from two near misses and a Blenheim crashing into her bows. Nine crew were killed but EMDEN was completely repaired on the 16th.



At Schillig Roads, pocket battleship ADMIRAL SCHEER was hit by three 250 pound bombs which failed to explode and caused no damage. SCHEER had problems with her main engines, but was ready for sea on 10 October. She continued to have difficulties and started an extensive overhaul in February 1940 lasting into October 1940.



Destroyer DIETHER VON ROEDER, close by SCHEER was near missed, but not damaged.



Of the aircraft involved, ten, including all five of 139 Squadron failed to find the target and returned to base, one bombed Esbjerg, Denmark, and three attacked HM ships in the North Sea without success. Losses amounted to seven - two Wellingtons of 9 Squadron, four Blenheims of 107 Squadron, and one Blenheim of 110 Squadron shot down.



Baltic - Polish submarine SEP on patrol east of Hela fired two torpedoes at German minesweeper M.4 of the 1st Minesweeping Flotilla. M.4 was not hit, counter-attacked with depth charges and damaged SEP, which was able to continue her patrol.



German minelayers HANSESTADT DANZIG and TANNENBERG, escorted by motor minesweepers R-boats of the 5th Motor Minesweeper Flotilla laid minefield Undine II the southern entrance to the Sound. Training ship BRUMMER, escorted by minesweepers M.75, M.84, and M.85, laid minefield Undine III. On the 5th, TANNENBERG laid Undine I.



Minelayer PREUSSEN laid mines in minefield Grosser Bar at the entrance to the Great Belt. Greek steamer KOSTI (3933grt) was damaged on a mine in this field, two miles SE of Falsterbo Light Vessel after ignoring warnings from German patrol boats.



English Channel - Destroyer ACHERON departed Portland with a MA/SB on anti-submarine exercises with submarine H.31. Later that day at 1350, destroyer KELLY, which was working up nearby in Weymouth Bay, reported being attacked by a submarine. KELLY and ACHERON attacked a contact at 1550. H.31 was not damage



Destroyer WESSEX made two anti-submarine attacks off Eddystone Light during the day - in 50-13N, 03-32W at 1215 and in 50-09N, 3-59W at 1538.



Aircraft carrier COURAGEOUS departed Plymouth at 0845 on anti-submarine patrol with destroyers ANTHONY, ACASTA, AMAZON, ARDENT. Destroyer ECLIPSE attacked a submarine contact near COURAGEOUS off the Eddystone in 50-01.5N, 4-09W at 0940. After the attack, she joined the screen. ECLIPSE made another attack at 50-10.5N, 4-02E at 1915. The force returned to Plymouth the same day at 1720.



French Channel coast - destroyer CODRINGTON, French torpedo boat L'INCOMPRISE and a French seaplane attacked a submarine contact off Gravelines.



Destroyers VENOMOUS, WREN, 16th Destroyer Flotilla embarked an advance party of the GHQ of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF), arrived at Cherbourg and disembarked their troops that evening, returning to Portsmouth on the 5th. On the 7th at 0015, the two destroyers again sailed from Portsmouth and joined a convoy which was escorted to Cherbourg. They arrived back at Portsmouth at 1100.



St George’s Channel - steamer BLAIRBEG (3509grt) was abandoned after a submarine attack, although no damage was done. Destroyer WALKER attacked a contact SW of The Smalls at 51-10W, 6-32W. WALKER, now with VANQUISHER stood by the steamer while the crew re-embarked and continued their passage to Glasgow.



Mediterranean - heavy cruiser SUSSEX and destroyers COSSACK, MAORI, NUBIAN, ZULU departed Alexandria at 1930 to relieve light cruiser ARETHUSA and her destroyers on patrol. The patrol was discontinued on the 7th, and SUSSEX was instructed to send her destroyers to convoy Green 1.



South Atlantic - German steamer CARL FRITZEN (6594grt) departed Rotterdam on 10 August for Buenas Aires. She was due to make landfall off Cabo Polonio on the 4th, but was intercepted by light cruiser AJAX in 34‑19S, 48‑29W. As with OLINDA on the 3rd, AJAX was forced to scuttle CARL FRITZEN.
 
And it's not like Germany can hope to pull off a Pearl Harbor type of sneak attack, because unlike the Japanese, Hitler is trying to AVOID war with England and France. England declared war on Germany after the Polish invasion, and had its fleet at full readiness when it did so.
 
Could do an awful lot more if your torpedoes actually worked properly. Seems a lot of the major powers had major issues with dud torpedoes in WW2.
 
Did not know that.

Thanks for the correction.

Interesting design. Bizarre, but that happens a lot in the early days of ship type. More a true torpedo ship (at 1,900 ton surfaced) that could dip below the surface for a few miles than a submarine.

Good description of them, since dive time was around five minutes. Look up the the Battle of May Island for a look at the class. Over a third of the class was destroyed or damaged in that little debacle. They were more dangerous to their crews than to the enemy.
 

nbcman

Donor
The M class fits that too, and would give a better bang for the buck (Pound?)
And a 12" gun to boot - submarine monitors!
300px-HMS_M1_from_air_port_bow.jpg
 
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