German saving of Sixth Army at Stalingrad.

sharlin

Banned
Scenario I thoughts

scenario II

in the 3rd week of November when Uranus linked up; 6th army was bloodied but it was still a powerful force with over 200 tanks and 270ish thousand men there is no particular reason that they could not have massed two of their infantry corps on the southwest corner of the pocket (reinforcing them with a brigade of tanks) and ripped a whole open in the encircling forces and then swamped out of the pocket, riding hell bent for Kotelnikovo (120 km away) which restores their supply lines and would allow them to retreat in a more focused way towards Rostov whilst holding a corridor for Army Group A

Two huge problems, the germans had next to no fuel for their forces in Stalingrad and could only do tank operations by borrowing fuel from unit to unit when they were needed, that 120 km in atrocious weather would have guzzled fuel even faster than normal so the Panzers would end out out of gas in the open if they could safely disentangle themselves from Stalingrad itself, which would be hard considering that the defenders in the city went on the offensive at the same time as Operation Uranus to keep the 6th army looking the wrong way.

Second problem was Hitlers express order that had tank crews going into the city acting as infantry. You'd have to get them back to their units, reconstitute the companies and regiments, get them supplied, get them fueled up or get at least a core of the tanks fueled up and then get them moving.
All that's going to take a massive ammount of time, and it was time the 6th Army didn't have.

Actually 3rd problem. Hitler seems to have loathed the General Staff and had complete control down to a divisional level, you could not move without his express order, and Paulus was lets be honest, not a great general, he was more like a Staff officer promoted into the post, he was no Mannstein or Guderian or Rommel. To break out he wanted authority from Hitler to do so. And when he did ask about the possibilty of breaking out. Hitler said 'no' so like a good officer, he obeyed his orders and stayed put.
He didn't put any forces on standby he didn't try to get the Panzers out of the city 'just in case' he kept at his task and stayed firmly in Stalingrad.

The supply situation for the germans even before their encirclement was nigh on catasrophic. The 22nd Panzer Division was down to less than 30 tanks and was so short of fuel it had to borrow from the Romanians. German airpower was not much help due to the weather and i'll quote the commander of the air forces in the region Richtofhen from his diary 'Rains, snow and icy mists have put a stop to all flying. VIII Air Corps managed with great difficulty to get one or two aircraft off the ground. To seal off the Don Crossing by bombing is not possible.'

Also any withdrawl would have meant leaving over 10000 wounded behind as well as most of the heavy equipment and artillery. It would have been a case of infantry marching with tanks at their head. Across terrain pre-spotted for artillery and at the risk of constant air attack. It would not have been a withdrawl it would have been a rout.

Paulus did ask permission to break out by asking for 'freedom of action if it proves impossible to achive all round defence on the southern flank' That was his request to break out if the situation got worse.
Hitlers reply was.

'The Sixth Army is temporarily surrounded by Russian Forces. I know the Sixth Army and your commander-in-chief and have no doubt that in this difficult situation it will hold on bravely. The Sixth Army must know that I am doing everything to relive them. I will issue my instructions in good time. Adolf Hitler.'

To break out you would have needed Hitler to change his mind, and you've got more chance of the moon actually being made of cheese than that happening. Winter Storm was suppose to be used to open a corridor to supply the 6th army, not help it escape. Hitler would brook no withdrawl. And breaking out without orders could be seen as mutiny. IMHO to get the 6th army out, like to win at Kursk would require ASB/devine intervention. There simply was nothing they could do.
 
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I'm talking about the 200,000 Italians and 200,000 Romanians that were in Stalingrad together with the 250,000 Germans. The Germans were no more alone in Stalingrad than the British were alone in 1940 with all their Polish and Free French allies in that year, to say nothing of the Greeks. If those satellite armies have to break out, too, the Soviets only have to rip them up to put the Germans in an enormous tactical-strategic bind in Stalingrad itself and that cuts off any breakout attempt as Paulus has to secure his rear and ensure he doesn't escape one encirclement to wind up in another one. And in that kind of battle the slightest loss of momentum by the Germans for any reason is disastrous.

where are you getting these numbers from snake?

phase one is operation uranus; the 3rd and 4th romanian armies are destroyed; small elements are herded into the kessel others are driven into army group b and 4th panzer army's command areas

the italian army (8th) is hundreds of miles to the north, screening the upper don river and is not engaged in this phase (I don't know where you got 200k from either; the highest estimate of strength from them is 150k and the more common reference is 130k

forces trapped in the kessel 270ish thousand, 20 german divisions 2 romanian divisions

phase two is operation little saturn well to the north of the stalingrad kessel where 2nd guards and subsidiary forces rolled the italian 8th army in attempt to drive on rostov and cut off army group don and a from their supply lines to compel their surrender

little saturn in its opening stage was a decisive tactical and strategic victory; because they captured a shit load of italian prisoners; captured several airfields being used for the stalingrad airlift and compelled manstein to call of winter storm and withdraw 6th panzer to shore up his left flank sentencing the 6th army to die for good

its second stage saw the russians tactically defeated by 6th and 11th panzer which begat a strategic failure allowing army group don and a to escape
 
where are you getting these numbers from snake?

phase one is operation uranus; the 3rd and 4th romanian armies are destroyed; small elements are herded into the kessel others are driven into army group b and 4th panzer army's command areas

the italian army (8th) is hundreds of miles to the north, screening the upper don river and is not engaged in this phase (I don't know where you got 200k from either; the highest estimate of strength from them is 150k and the more common reference is 130k

forces trapped in the kessel 270ish thousand, 20 german divisions 2 romanian divisions

phase two is operation little saturn well to the north of the stalingrad kessel where 2nd guards and subsidiary forces rolled the italian 8th army in attempt to drive on rostov and cut off army group don and a from their supply lines to compel their surrender

little saturn in its opening stage was a decisive tactical and strategic victory; because they captured a shit load of italian prisoners; captured several airfields being used for the stalingrad airlift and compelled manstein to call of winter storm and withdraw 6th panzer to shore up his left flank sentencing the 6th army to die for good

its second stage saw the russians tactically defeated by 6th and 11th panzer which begat a strategic failure allowing army group don and a to escape

OK, I'll dial down the number of satellite armies, the key factor is that if the Germans are trying to get these guys out too and not completely put their alliances with their allies on crude brute force then they can't just let the Soviets kick their asses, if you see what I mean? So if the Germans decide to buy their freedom by using the Romanians and Italians as Soviet-bait, the Romanians and Italians will think of the Germans "faithless dicks" because they've reason to think that......

And even if the Germans preserve enough of 6th Army to make it worthwhile they lose politically.
 
OK, I'll dial down the number of satellite armies, the key factor is that if the Germans are trying to get these guys out too and not completely put their alliances with their allies on crude brute force then they can't just let the Soviets kick their asses, if you see what I mean? So if the Germans decide to buy their freedom by using the Romanians and Italians as Soviet-bait, the Romanians and Italians will think of the Germans "faithless dicks" because they've reason to think that......

And even if the Germans preserve enough of 6th Army to make it worthwhile they lose politically.

well the romanians are fucked before winter storm starts since they where the target of uranus; hitler and manstein can't make amends there

the italians within scenario 1.... maybe; if stavka can convince stalin to ignore winter storm (even a more successful winter storm) they still get avalanched; german emergency reserves are not going to be in position 200 miles north of the trapped 6th army.... however; if mansteins right hand (6th and 10th panzer) is more successful making rapid and convincing progress towards the city, and his left hand on the chir (11th and hg panzer) more soundly and rapidly defeats the 2 soviet tank corps trying to cross the river its possible stalin might call off little saturn and direct 2nd guards to hold manstein frontally (it's what I would do in his place) which may still doom 6th army to death and grind up manstein's reserves; however the italians get to rereat with their 12 division in tact
 
Two huge problems, the germans had next to no fuel for their forces in Stalingrad and could only do tank operations by borrowing fuel from unit to unit when they were needed, that 120 km in atrocious weather would have guzzled fuel even faster than normal so the Panzers would end out out of gas in the open if they could safely disentangle themselves from Stalingrad itself, which would be hard considering that the defenders in the city went on the offensive at the same time as Operation Uranus to keep the 6th army looking the wrong way.

Second problem was Hitlers express order that had tank crews going into the city acting as infantry. You'd have to get them back to their units, reconstitute the companies and regiments, get them supplied, get them fueled up or get at least a core of the tanks fueled up and then get them moving.
All that's going to take a massive ammount of time, and it was time the 6th Army didn't have.

Actually 3rd problem. Hitler seems to have loathed the General Staff and had complete control down to a divisional level, you could not move without his express order, and Paulus was lets be honest, not a great general, he was more like a Staff officer promoted into the post, he was no Mannstein or Guderian or Rommel. To break out he wanted authority from Hitler to do so. And when he did ask about the possibilty of breaking out. Hitler said 'no' so like a good officer, he obeyed his orders and stayed put.
He didn't put any forces on standby he didn't try to get the Panzers out of the city 'just in case' he kept at his task and stayed firmly in Stalingrad.

The supply situation for the germans even before their encirclement was nigh on catasrophic. The 22nd Panzer Division was down to less than 30 tanks and was so short of fuel it had to borrow from the Romanians. German airpower was not much help due to the weather and i'll quote the commander of the air forces in the region Richtofhen from his diary 'Rains, snow and icy mists have put a stop to all flying. VIII Air Corps managed with great difficulty to get one or two aircraft off the ground. To seal off the Don Crossing by bombing is not possible.'

Also any withdrawl would have meant leaving over 10000 wounded behind as well as most of the heavy equipment and artillery. It would have been a case of infantry marching with tanks at their head. Across terrain pre-spotted for artillery and at the risk of constant air attack. It would not have been a withdrawl it would have been a rout.

Paulus did ask permission to break out by asking for 'freedom of action if it proves impossible to achive all round defence on the southern flank' That was his request to break out if the situation got worse.
Hitlers reply was.

'The Sixth Army is temporarily surrounded by Russian Forces. I know the Sixth Army and your commander-in-chief and have no doubt that in this difficult situation it will hold on bravely. The Sixth Army must know that I am doing everything to relive them. I will issue my instructions in good time. Adolf Hitler.'

To break out you would have needed Hitler to change his mind, and you've got more chance of the moon actually being made of cheese than that happening. Winter Storm was suppose to be used to open a corridor to supply the 6th army, not help it escape. Hitler would brook no withdrawl. And breaking out without orders could be seen as mutiny. IMHO to get the 6th army out, like to win at Kursk would require ASB/devine intervention. There simply was nothing they could do.

on your first point on fuel,

fuel was an issue; however it was less of an issue 3rd week in november than it was later when Paulus put it to paper (as continued combat, shutteling wounded, heating, loss of depots etc drained stocks)... they still had at least a warload on hand which would mean the panzers could theoretically go 250 miles

2nd point

anthony beevor and others have quoted this hitler OKH order to dismount the tank drivers and loaders for infantry service; but i have never seen one account of it actually being implemented; hube, wietershiem and paulus protested vigorously and i don't think it actually got implemented (Hube, Manstein and none of the surviving panzer specialists who where flown over never commented on it; nor did Paulus himself) i fall into the camp that there is no proof that actually happened and that the still servicable tanks had crews

on your 3rd point

this is of course the biggest obstacle... nobody in late 42 disobeyed hitler orders; and the 6th army had a direct high frequency link to high command; perhaps within the scale of the pod manstein can be appointed commander of a renewed "army group south" giving him full tactical responsibility of 6th army... this was a huge handicap for him in not being able to order paulus to cooperate with winter storm... this is actually probably reason in it's own right that scenario 2 whislt physically possible is asb from a personality plausibility perspective
 
While Hitler wouldn't have done it because of his experience with chemical weapons in WW1 I wonder what would have happened if they used their stockpile to try to releave the 6th Army.

Would it turn the war into a biochem war? I guess it's up to the US and English and if Germany keeps using it.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
While Hitler wouldn't have done it because of his experience with chemical weapons in WW1 I wonder what would have happened if they used their stockpile to try to releave the 6th Army.

Would it turn the war into a biochem war? I guess it's up to the US and English and if Germany keeps using it.


Some people think the soviets did use bioweapons.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=195662

There was a Q fever outbreak. Was it cause by poor sanitation in wartime or Soviet agents? Opinion differ.
 
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