German Russian Peace Jan 1945

iron

:D
Snake Featherston said:
The downside of Zhukov's preference for overpowering frontal attacks. The Germans built a very powerful defensive line there, Zhukov overdid his artillery and misused searchlights, this contributed to the clusterfuck that happened there. The difference between that and Konev's simultaneous attack shows that didn't exactly need to happen. And that the attack on Seelow Heights happened as it did was because Zhukov's nerves failed him for the only time in the war.

Zhukov's strategies obviously did work given the USSR was in Berlin and the Germans didn't get to kill all Europe's Slavs and turn Moscow into an artificial lake. They did, however, lead to the instances like this and at the Battle of the Okha Line where the frontal attacks produced heavier casualties than maneuver might have.

TL;DR: They wanted it thus, this did not mean they always got what they wanted.
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All's good..."pulling your chain" a bit :D

Have you read the work I cited?

Well worth the price of admission...Germany was fubar
 
Cook

Cook

Banned
Catspoke said:
Eastern front is the same as OTL.
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That puts the Russians within 100 km of Berlin and well beyond the 1914 Russian-German Border. With that in mind and knowing that they are about to divide Germany between themselves and the British and Americans, why would they ever consider the German offer?
 

iron

Snake Featherston said:
No, but I've read Richard Overy's Why the Allies Won. :)
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Own that one too...:)

Mierezejewski gives you a really good look inside of Germany as the hammer falls; this is largely attributable to the persistence of his efforts to trawl through the mountainous volumes of operational records (DRG), held by the BAMA.

Oh yeah...amatuers study tactics...etc, etc
 

Snake Featherston

Banned
iron said:
Own that one too...:)

Mierezejewski gives you a really good look inside of Germany as the hammer falls; this is largely attributable to the persistence of his efforts to trawl through the mountainous volumes of operational records (DRG), held by the BAMA.
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I'll see if I can find that book, the university library has a very good WWII section. :)
 

iron

Snake Featherston said:
I'll see if I can find that book, the university library has a very good WWII section. :)
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If it's good..they'll have it. Grab his "Most Valuable Asset of the Reich:Vol 2" while you're at it. It's an operational history of the German railways during WWII.

Van Crevald's "Supplying War" (a valuable, but somewhat dated text) always seems to get the plaudits when people get into this discussion on these forums
For example? There's a whole lot more to "converting" a rail network than pulling up one rail and nailing it down 3 1/2" closer. Roadbeds, bridges, telegraphy, provisionment...It's all addressed by Mierezejewski.
 

hairysamarian

LeoXiao said:
Cue people screaming "this is ASB!" because the war can't possibly be resolved by anything other than Germany being smashed into the ground at this point. :rolleyes:
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It's not automatically ASB, true enough. :) However, any negotiated peace with the USSR becomes so improbable after the German losses of 1943 as to approximate impossibility.
At that point, the Soviets are on the march and are committed to a military solution as an answer to what Germany has inflicted upon them. I can't imagine what probable change could occur that would have derailed the Moscow to Berlin armored express.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
lionhead said:
Hitler would have never made peace. Goebbels would have never made peace. Himmler would have never made peace. Bormann would have never made peace. Stalin would have never made peace. Molotov would have never made peace. Zhukov would have never made peace. Beria would have never made peace. Even if you kill off those individuals, there where plenty of reason not to go for peace since it was a 3-way war and relations between the Soviets and the Allies where a lot better then with the Germans.

The Soviets where crushing the Germans. Though they would be stronger if the Allies had less decivisve victories they would still push on through into Germany. Eisenhower would have never made peace, Roosevelt would have never made peace, Churchhill would have never made peace. The Germans can't win and the Russians know it. Most German generals knew it too. The Allies knew it too. The other Axis countries knew it too(most had already surrendered by then)
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This.

(Filler).
 

Julian

One interesting thought is that this might cause Zhukov to continue from the Oder much closer to Berlin than IOTL. IOTL he believed that the pressure on his flanks was too strong to risk further advances and supply difficulties were too great, but the lack of any German formations able to resist the immediate Soviet advance and the closeness of Berlin may offset any immediate deficiencies. Berlin isn't taken, but certainly the Soviet's position is much stronger int he area.
 
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