German Research Better Coordinated

quick question...of the numerous names dropped, is there any link between them and specific American technology developed?
 
You've raised an interesting point and it would be interesting to see how you think it would get fleshed out. I don't know whether more bureaucratic coordination was really the problem, and for that matter, it's not as if at any point Nazi Germany was horrendously backwards technologically. They weren't beaten by being overmatched technologically. If anything, they were repeatedly overconfident in their technical position but overcome by sheer industrial and military numbers and superior logistics on the Allied side. (There are some notable exceptions, like Bletchley Park.

I was thinking of mostly the effects on aeronautics and submarine technologies at first, specifically pre-fab submarine construction and jet engines. Coordinate the original 1938 team at Heinkel with assistance from Jumo and BMW instead of splitting everyone apart, maybe you get a Class II (10-20kN) German jet engine in 1942 and perhaps a Class III or IV before the war is over. If Speer uses shipbuilding companies in the Type XXI design process and moreso as part of the construction process, maybe they become a threat in time for the Bulge...or even Normandy...
 
The big problem is always Hitler == he wants bigger ships, bigger guns, bigger tanks and is fixated on attack, attack, attack ... so unless he is convinced that eg. a Jet Engine can be used as a means of propelling some sort of bomb or missile at the enemy it's just not going to get prioroty ...

.. remember the ME262 ? .. could have been a Flying Fortress killer .. but Hitler saw to it that production was delayed whilst they fitted bomb racks ... so better co-ordination would just have led to a Jet powered light bomber ... same for V2 = maybe earlier use, maybe more accurate, but in the end it will always be incapable of stopping the US/UK advance across Europe into Germany (let alone the Soviets)

As for those who suggest a Nazi Atomic Bomb = well the Manhattan Project eventually employed more than 130,000 people across more than 30 sites === hard to see how they could have hidden all that and kept it going in the face of Allied bombing == not to mention that the first US bomb test was July 16, 1945 i.e. some 10 weeks AFTER Hitler committed suicide (on 30 April 45) ...

All the co-ordination in the world isn't going to mave much impact on the final outcome of the war .. in fact, it might make things MUCH worst for Germany (anyone want to bet that the Yanks WOULDN'T have nuked Berlin if the Nazi's were still fighting in Aug 45 ???)

For Germany to 'win the war' means 'not starting the war' == or to be more exact, not doing anything that provokes UK/France until after Dec 6 1941 ... after that date UK/France will be too busy in Asia to care (or do) much against the Nazi's no matter what the provocation (such as Nazi invasion of Poland/Russia )..
 

Deleted member 1487

.. remember the ME262 ? .. could have been a Flying Fortress killer .. but Hitler saw to it that production was delayed whilst they fitted bomb racks ... so better co-ordination would just have led to a Jet powered light bomber ...
That has been thoroughly debunked; there were at most very minor delays caused by the fighter-bomber variant, though lives lost unnecessarily (good for the Allies of course) in a silly project who could have aided the fighter project.
 
That has been thoroughly debunked; there were at most very minor delays caused by the fighter-bomber variant, though lives lost unnecessarily (good for the Allies of course) in a silly project who could have aided the fighter project.

Another set of delays that might garner interest:

*HeS 30 engine prototype plausible in 1940 with an active He 280 fighter ising it no later than the end of 1941 and might take the fight to the B17s at altitide...

*Hans Mauch never forces Junkers to divest its large internal team of jet pioneer-engineers in 1939

*BMW gets help developing the 109-018 engine and Jumo gets similar help developing the Jumo 022 turboprop airborne a year or more before the war's end

*V-80 hull still built, coordinated research brings Type XVII and XXI submarines online 12-18 months earlier
 
As for those who suggest a Nazi Atomic Bomb = well the Manhattan Project eventually employed more than 130,000 people across more than 30 sites === hard to see how they could have hidden all that and kept it going in the face of Allied bombing == not to mention that the first US bomb test was July 16, 1945 i.e. some 10 weeks AFTER Hitler committed suicide (on 30 April 45) ...

I have seen estimates of the cost of the German rocket program ranging from one-third of the Manhattan Project to twice the Manhattan Project. Even assuming the lower-end estimate is correct, it's a mind-boggling investment of resources into a technology that, at least on its own, is virtually useless. Although it didn't exactly lose them the war, this is yet another way in which the Nazis were bad decision-makers.
 
The money cost alone is not enough == they have to keep their program going in the face of allied 'detection' (Enigma/Lorenz decrypts) and determination to stop them .. ( the Allies bombed Peenemünde and stopped them getting the heavy water from Norsk Hydro.) Even when the Allies weren't sure what the 'secret facility' was they bombed it anyway (see v3 aka the 'London Gun')

Yes, they had underground facilities - the most infamous perhaps was Mittelbau-Dora (V2 production plant) with about 10,000 slave labourers ..

But I'm betting your average Nazi atomic scientist is not going to work well in that sort of environment == anyway, by the time they manage to build an underground facility big enough to house 120,000+ workforce it's going to be all over .. and splitting them across a dozen Dora sized plants just means 12 more targets ..

So could better German scientific co-ordination 'make a difference' .. well, yes, but the Russian and US resources are so massive that I can't see the outcome of WW2 being any different (except worse) for Germany ..

With the possible exception of rocket guidance, in just about every other field the Allies were in front or not far behind .. indeed it's the British who 'could have done a lot better' (see the sad history of Frank Whittle, who essentially worked himself to death building the British Jet engine in a face of official indifference (it took him about 10 years to get it working, after which the British establishment said 'thank you very much' and confiscated the lot ...)
 
I was thinking of mostly the effects on aeronautics and submarine technologies at first, specifically pre-fab submarine construction and jet engines ... If Speer uses shipbuilding companies in the Type XXI design process and moreso as part of the construction process, maybe they become a threat in time for the Bulge...or even Normandy...

there were many aspects of Elektroboot technology that could have been applied to existing u-boats (and designs) earlier, of course your point still correct about introducing mass production techniques on submarines.

not sure it is problem with better research coordination that evolutionary changes not made ... while waiting on next big thing?
 
there were many aspects of Elektroboot technology that could have been applied to existing u-boats (and designs) earlier, of course your point still correct about introducing mass production techniques on submarines.

not sure it is problem with better research coordination that evolutionary changes not made ... while waiting on next big thing?


Yes this is correct, but its lessons don't seemed to have been learned by Donitz - until it was too late. To be fair since Hitler was the hurdle to be cross it had to be kept simple and the one enduring talking point for the 1930s KM, was to build a large U-Boat fleet to fight Britain-Hitler understood this. He also understood Raeder's desire for big battleships, but beyond that -the nuances escaped him. Hitler did not grasp the need for numbers of capital ships -as well as there size. So 1/2 dozen capital ships plus 1/2 dozen cruisers & 1/2 dozen fast fleet tankers would be a pale imitation of the Hochseeflotte and thus at best "a fleet in being"...but of little value to any U-Boat war.

Any Wehrmacht C-IN-C would have understood the massive waste such a building program represented and would gladly opt for only building dozens of surface raiders to work in tandem with an expanding wolf pack commerce war -to threaten and interdict the transatlantic life line.

Following that special building some jet propelled U-Boats was off little value either. More to the point to modify & tinker with existing designs to make faster U-Boats.
 

Deleted member 94680

It’s not possible with the Nazis in power. The “fuhrerprinzip” and the way Hitler set different sections/bureaus/departments against each other to secure his hold on power means the ineffective Nazi R&D of OTL is the best you can hope for.
 
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