German-Polish war in the 1920’s

Hello everyone,
I was reading German Grand Admiral Eric Raeder’s memoirs and came upon something interesting. Admiral Raeder writes that during the 1920’s “Poland had built up a strong army, superior both in numbers and equipment to our limited (German) army of 100,000. Danzig, which had been denied to Poland by the Peace Treaty, was an open, defenseless city, which Poland was seeking every possible means to dominate. It was not beyond the bounds of possibility that Poland might some day seize the city by force, and ultimately do the same with East Prussia, which was cut off by the Polish Corridor. The armed seizure of Memel by Lithuanian volunteers and of Vilna by Polish volunteers in 1920, neither of which any other powers had contested, made it seem quite possible that the same fate could overtake Danzig and East Prussia unless Germany was in position to offer immediate and energetic resistance. And since Poland had a close alliance with France, Germany would have to reckon on meeting French forces as well as Polish, if Poland staged a surprise attack on Danzig or East Prussia.”
He later goes on to say that “the Polish-French military alliance of 1926 stipulated that the French government would provide a squadron of two battleships, four cruisers, four destroyers, three submarines and one minelayer, for the defense of Poland.”
My alternate history, what if, is a German-Polish war in the 1920’s. It would pit a weak Germany army and navy VS a strong Polish army with French naval support. I was also wondering if the Soviet Union or the Baltic States would have had any impact.
Here are some states I found
Due to Versailles Treaty
German Army- 100,000 men
Germany Navy- 24 ships total: six pre-dreadnought battleships, six cruisers and 12 destroyers
Polish Army- 700,000 men
French Naval Forces- two modern battleships, four cruisers, four destroyers, three submarines and one minelayer
 
The way I see it the war ends in a couple of weeks, once Franch forces occupy the Ruhr and revolts spring up all around Germany. Basically, Germany is sc*ewed. It would never recover from this. I would be surprised if the country escaped being partitioned in two or three entities.

Eventually, Cold War begins after this and ends sometime after Stalin's death.
 
Doesn't take a genius to figure out the Germans will lose any confrontation. What exactly would make this interesting? :confused:
 
Germany did have armed groups of veterans from the first world war. Its' not inconcievable in a war with Poland and Frnace they would once agian serve the fatherland giving germany a far greater armed force.
 
Germany did have armed groups of veterans from the first world war. Its' not inconcievable in a war with Poland and Frnace they would once agian serve the fatherland giving germany a far greater armed force.

Long before they would be able to form up, French troops would parade through Saar and Ruhr. And Bavaria would rebel.
 
It would depend on France

If the scenario is that Poalnd attacked Germany without casus belli the UK actually might try to persuade france to "back down a bit".

OTOH the SU and Germany were after the Treaty of Rapallo (1922) on good terms.

So if we assume France is out and the SU is in then Poland suddenly lacks its best supporter and faces two angry neighbours...
 
The question is, what if Poland starts a unprovoced attack against Germany at this time, lets say 1926. Would France really support Poland in this case? And how would the rest of the world react? I think at this time many people still had some hopes for the League of Nations and how the LoN react would be seen as testcase fo her future. At the beginning Germany would surly had no chance to stop the Poles, but´they would call the LoN and if the the League doesn´t do anthing, Germany would proclaim that it has to rearm again in selfdefefence. I could also see, that the USSR start to steer up trouble on olands eastern border. And if France really gives naval support to Poland I can even see, that Britain send a "observing fleet" to put pressure on the French.
 
The question is, what if Poland starts a unprovoced attack against Germany at this time, lets say 1926. Would France really support Poland in this case? And how would the rest of the world react? I think at this time many people still had some hopes for the League of Nations and how the LoN react would be seen as testcase fo her future. At the beginning Germany would surly had no chance to stop the Poles, but´they would call the LoN and if the the League doesn´t do anthing, Germany would proclaim that it has to rearm again in selfdefefence. I could also see, that the USSR start to steer up trouble on olands eastern border. And if France really gives naval support to Poland I can even see, that Britain send a "observing fleet" to put pressure on the French.

Sure France would support Poland. To get in another blow to their rival to the East that they thought would be easy they would have jumped at the chance to end Germany as a state and partition the country along with a few annexations for good measure.
 
Most likely outcome is for a quick Polish occupation meeting limited resistance. Germany might try and fight back, but will soon be told to sit down and stay quiet by France and the UK. I doubt the Germans would try and escalate things, as the only realistic outcome of an escalation is a loss for them.

I don't really see France or the UK even getting actively involved. The mere threat of intervention will likely be enough to make Germany stop.

I think if Poland attacks, they'll do so with some flimsy justification that will be enough for France, who stands to benefit from the weakening of Germany and has little to lose. If it'll be enough for the UK is another thing, although I don't think they'd complain too much.
 
Most likely outcome is for a quick Polish occupation meeting limited resistance. Germany might try and fight back, but will soon be told to sit down and stay quiet by France and the UK. I doubt the Germans would try and escalate things, as the only realistic outcome of an escalation is a loss for them.

I don't really see France or the UK even getting actively involved. The mere threat of intervention will likely be enough to make Germany stop.

I think if Poland attacks, they'll do so with some flimsy justification that will be enough for France, who stands to benefit from the weakening of Germany and has little to lose. If it'll be enough for the UK is another thing, although I don't think they'd complain too much.

The UK wouldn't certainly. But, France has a chance to crush Germany once and for all with ease and split it up into a bunch of seperate states again and I think would likely decide to do so. I focus on the word with ease because that is vital here. If they think it would be even somewhat difficult they wouldn't do it.

With German's sending almost everything they have against the Poles the temptation would be great.
 
German-Polish war in the 1920’s extended

German-Polish war in the 1920’s extended
Based on everyone’s comments I have constructed an extended version

Like Buddha1942 said “Germany did have armed groups of veterans from the first world war. Its' not inconceivable in a war with Poland and France they would once again serve the fatherland giving Germany a far greater armed force.” Germany would have large amounts of veterans who could have taken part in the conflict. Germany’s Freikorps/Stahlhelm had in 1919 250,000 members and by 1930, 500,000 members.

Like Shaby said Long before they would be able to form up, French troops would parade through Saar and Ruhr. And Bavaria would rebel.” So let’s assume due to pressure from Britain and the League of Nations, France, only commits its naval forces and not ground forces. Lets also assume that well known politicians that have influence in Bavaria like Otto Gessler, who happens to be one of Grand Admiral Raeder’s best friends, are able to keep them from rebelling.

Assume that Poland begins the war with an advance into East Prussia and Germany responses by activating its so called “Study East” which called for “German armed forces would strike a counter blow if Poland invaded East Prussia. This counter blow was to strike Gdynia, Poland’s largest seaport and naval base located on the Baltic about 10 miles west of Danzig. The Navy would have to carry out the entire operation, inasmuch as the Army could give no support here. In addition to bombarding the incomplete Polish coastal fortifications with heavy guns of the old battleships, the navy would block the entrance to Gdynia with mines. If executed successfully, such an operation should do much to check Polish aggression. Germany would also mine and send light naval forces to the entrance of the Baltic to prevent French warships, transports and expeditionary forces from landing into the Baltic.”

Now the forces would look like this
German Army- 100,000 men
Germany Navy- 24 ships total: six pre-dreadnought battleships, six cruisers and 12 destroyers
Freikorps/Stahlhelm- 250,000-500,000
Polish Army- 700,000 men
French Naval Forces- two modern battleships, four cruisers, four destroyers, three submarines and one minelayer (slowed down in the Baltic, due to Study East)
 
Why would Poland attack Germany? Without solving that problem you may as well make a TL about Denmark attacking Irland.
 
^^Well, there were quite more animosities between Poland and Germany than between these two. Still, you're right. Poland wouldn't start unprovoked war against Germany, and France wouldn't back up such attack. Unless you find some good reason like Germany going communist/fascist earlier, or time traveller informing polish leaders about events of next 20 years.
 

Cook

Banned
Before you get too carried away, it is best to remember that Raeder was an arch-Nazi, one of the principal architects of Hitler’s war of aggression, and was writing a treatise justifying his decisions and actions; actions for which he received a life sentence at Nuremburg. His statements should be taken with a very large grain of salt.
 
My two cents:

The 20ies saw rapprochement between France and Germany. Stresemann and Briand anyone? The both received the Nobel Peace Prize for the approach between their Nations. Because of WW2 people seem to forget, that Germany and France had not always been at each others throats.
 
Here are two events I know of that may have pushed Poland into a war with Germany dur

Here are two events I know that may have pushed Poland into a war with Germany during the 20’s
1. Germany’s crushing of popular Polish revolts in Upper Silesia in 1921.
2. The visit of the German battleship Hessen to the supposedly free city of Danzig in July 1927.
 
Poland might find self fighting on to fronts,you guys seam to forget that there is a USSR right next door to Poland.
UK, USA will not support Poland.
UK, was woried about France becoming, a continental hegemonic in case of France intervention.
Also how would France sell the intervention in Germany to her allies and people,if Poland is the aggressor.
Likewise Poland screw up her relations with Czechoslovakia, and Lithuania. so they might be worried about to be next after Germany for Poland.
How well equipped and trained wher the 700.000 polish ?
Poland had a bad track withe regard to treatment of minorities, after WWI, so they will have to wary about the Belorussian and Ukrainian minority in the east, Soviet might steer them up.
Could this scenario of polish aggression back fire against Poland and how bad could it get for Poland for example Poland might lose her corridor.
If Poland loses, and Germany is no longer the bad guy, would be the victim of polish aggression could Germany get T.o.V. water down or scrap, could this prevent Germany form turning to Nazism or Communism.
 
UK, USA will not support Poland.
UK, was woried about France becoming, a continental hegemonic in case of France intervention.
Also how would France sell the intervention in Germany to her allies and people,if Poland is the aggressor.
Likewise Poland screw up her relations with Czechoslovakia, and Lithuania. so they might be worried about to be next after Germany for Poland.
How well equipped and trained wher the 700.000 polish ?
Poland had a bad track withe regard to treatment of minorities, after WWI, so they will have to wary about the Belorussian and Ukrainian minority in the east, Soviet might steer them up.
Could this scenario of polish aggression back fire against Poland and how bad could it get for Poland for example Poland might lose her corridor.

This cannot be determined if we don't know precisely how the war broke out.

If Poland loses, and Germany is no longer the bad guy, would be the victim of polish aggression could Germany get T.o.V. water down or scrap, could this prevent Germany form turning to Nazism or Communism.

The probability of this happening in our timeline was low to begin with, and had very little to do with the treaty of Versailles. I'm not sure if any divergences in the 1920s could have significantly altered this probability. (Besides eliminating the Nazis themselves, or perhaps profoundly improving the German economy somehow).
 
After the war Germany could get a new time table for WWI reparations, in regard to T.o.V.

As for the how the war starts,let say: Polish leadership is more nationalistic the o.t.l, believes that they will heave a free pass in invading Germany ,UK won't be interested ,France even if they don't get involved they won't opposed it. Boosted by victory against Soviet Union they believe they heave the power to resist the soviets and that the west is more concern with spreed of communism the they are with the fate of Germany in face of polish aggression and believe that they (the west) will support Poland if the Soviets ar interfering.So polish invazion of Germany.as for what trigger :

Here are two events I know that may have pushed Poland into a war with Germany during the 20’s
1. Germany’s crushing of popular Polish revolts in Upper Silesia in 1921.
2. The visit of the German battleship Hessen to the supposedly free city of Danzig in July 1927.

True that i would go for the second example since i believe even a nut's job Poland will not stat a war with Germany so while it fights the Soviets or shortly after the war with the soviets
 
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Here are some other events and occurrences that may have had an impact

Here are some other events and occurrences that may have had an impact
1921: Polish-Romanian alliance declared
1922: Treaty of Rapallo signed between USSR and Germany, Germany starts conducting military training and weapons development I the Soviet Union in order to evade Versailles Treaty restrictions.
September 1922: German General Hans Von Seeckt in a memo to the Foreign minister says that Germany With Poland we come now to the core of the Eastern problem. The existence of Poland is intolerable and incompatible with Germany's vital interests. She must disappear and will do so through her own inner weakness and through Russia — with our help. Poland is more intolerable for Russia than for ourselves; Russia can never tolerate Poland. With Poland collapses one of the strongest pillars of the Peace of Versailles, France's advance post of power. The attainment of this objective must be one of the firmest guiding principles of German policy, as it is capable of achievement — but only through Russia or with her help. Poland can never offer Germany any advantage, either economically, because she is incapable of development, or politically, because she is a vassal state of France. The restoration of the frontier between Russia and Germany is a necessary condition before both sides can become strong. The 1914 frontier between Russia and Germany should be the basis of any understanding between the two countries.”
Admiral Eric Raeder, then commander of the Baltic Naval district, declares that “An aggressive attack against Poland, it would be utter madness.”
September 12th 1929: King Alfonso XIII of Spain causes international buzz by visiting Kiel, Germany, in the Spanish cruiser Principe Alfono. While there he encourages German ships to come to Spanish ports and tries to enhance the “close and cordial relations” between the two countries.
April 1929: In case of war with Poland, the German government issued the directive “Defense of the Nation and its boundaries.”
 
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