German peace with Russia in 1941

Futurama

Banned
If Goring had taken power over Germany in late 1941, what sort of peace would they get with the Russians? Please put your responses into categories such as: "a maximum peace", "a likely peace deal", and a "bear minimum".
 
They would have gotten no peace. Just because Goering was in power, doesn't mean that the intense policy of Lebensraum still wouldn't be observed. Unless you also manage to kill off Himmler, Rosenberg, Goebbels and pretty much the entire head of the Nazi government.
 

Futurama

Banned
They would have gotten no peace. Just because Goering was in power, doesn't mean that the intense policy of Lebensraum still wouldn't be observed. Unless you also manage to kill off Himmler, Rosenberg, Goebbels and pretty much the entire head of the Nazi government.

Yes, I plan on having Himmler being killed off during a coup attempt, Goebbels being either tainted in the coup or told to "tone it down", and Rosenberg sidelined. So, if there were serious negotiations, what would the peace be?
 
Neither Stalin nor any of his cronies planned on accepting a peace with Nazi Germany. They were just committed to the war as anyone else. The myth of peace offers being sent in 1941 comes from the fact that, in order to delay the Nazi advance, Stalin had Molotov deliver an armistice request to the Romanian embassy. The request was never passed on and that was that. It wasn't a serious prelude to peace negotiations in any case.
 

Futurama

Banned
Neither Stalin nor any of his cronies planned on accepting a peace with Nazi Germany. They were just committed to the war as anyone else. The myth of peace offers being sent in 1941 comes from the fact that, in order to delay the Nazi advance, Stalin had Molotov deliver an armistice request to the Romanian embassy. The request was never passed on and that was that. It wasn't a serious prelude to peace negotiations in any case.

Ok, this is more of a "what kind of peace could the Germans get if all parties were to enter serious negotiations" instead of a "is it realistic". So, if all parties were willing to enter negotiations, what would the Germans get? I should have made this clear before.
 
Ok, this is more of a "what kind of peace could the Germans get if all parties were to enter serious negotiations" instead of a "is it realistic". So, if all parties were willing to enter negotiations, what would the Germans get? I should have made this clear before.

Well if you're going to make a serious story than a strong element of realism is required, otherwise you're opening yourself up to some major criticism.

But in any case, if there is no plausible reason for a German-Soviet peace accord at any date after the war begins, so it's really hard to come up with realistic peace deals which would match the situation on the ground.
 

Futurama

Banned
Well if you're going to make a serious story than a strong element of realism is required, otherwise you're opening yourself up to some major criticism.

But in any case, if there is no plausible reason for a German-Soviet peace accord at any date after the war begins, so it's really hard to come up with realistic peace deals which would match the situation on the ground.

Well, my idea was Goring taking power after Hitler died, and Stalin dying or being deposed from power after a coup. What about starting with a Brest-Livotisk Mark 2? Would Germany be able to get more out of the Russians? Lets say negotiations begin after a general armistice on September 10, 1941.
 
Neither Stalin nor any of his cronies planned on accepting a peace with Nazi Germany. They were just committed to the war as anyone else. The myth of peace offers being sent in 1941 comes from the fact that, in order to delay the Nazi advance, Stalin had Molotov deliver an armistice request to the Romanian embassy. The request was never passed on and that was that. It wasn't a serious prelude to peace negotiations in any case.
Bulgarian actually. But story, if true goes that Bulgarian ambassador believed Russian couldn't be eaten andhe never passed the request. Romania was at war with Soviets and as such didn't have ambassador at Moscow at the time.
 
Bulgarian actually. But story, if true goes that Bulgarian ambassador believed Russian couldn't be eaten andhe never passed the request. Romania was at war with Soviets and as such didn't have ambassador at Moscow at the time.

My mistake, it's been a while since I read the book I got it from!

Well, my idea was Goring taking power after Hitler died, and Stalin dying or being deposed from power after a coup. What about starting with a Brest-Livotisk Mark 2? Would Germany be able to get more out of the Russians? Lets say negotiations begin after a general armistice on September 10, 1941.

Removing Stalin from power is also impossible. His subordinates were terrified of him, so there was no chance of them trying to overthrow him, as they assumed they would inevitably fail and die. In any case, anyone who could feasibly replace Stalin would have no interest in peace with Nazi Germany anyways.
 
Guys, stop being smartasses and just answer the goddamn question already. the OP asked "What if?", not "How could?"

IMO most likely it would be 1939 borders minus Poland (adsorbed by Russia), or the June 1941 borders, give or take the Baltic regions (they may become independent or Finlandized in favor of Germany), i.e. a white peace. Why? Because the war is very new, and it's hard to say who really has the upper hand just a few months months in. All we know definitively is that for Germany to stop its own offensive, things must've gone badly for them generally speaking, so none of the native USSR will be taken as German prize. Now the USSR doesn't feel confident that it can drive out the Germans with military force alone, hence the negotiations, so they won't be taking East Prussia or anything. They may agree to let the Baltic states be "neutral", perhaps Russia will give up what it took from Poland, but in any case the borders will not change drastically. What would happen is that both sides would still hate each other like the plague and the entire border would end up looking like the DMZ. Quite possibly they have another go at each other before 1950.
 
Guys, stop being smartasses and just answer the goddamn question already. the OP asked "What if?", not "How could?"

No, actually what he said was

If Goring had taken power over Germany in late 1941, what sort of peace would they get with the Russians?


If Goering had taken power in 1941, there would not have been a peace period. If he had asked

If the Nazis had attempted to broker a peace in 1941, what would have been the terms?

than we would have been smartasses. Now I realize that I may have come across as a smartass just now, but I was only doing so in defense of the posters here.
 
This is true. But the way I understood it was that the peace itself was more important that how the circumstance of negotiations was to be encountered. The spirit as opposed to the letter and all that. And even if that was not what he meant, it's still a superior option to give positive feedback rather than point out how very wrong the premise is. Maybe as an afterthought.
 
Nobody is going to make peace in the first few months of a major war unless they are facing certain defeat.

In 1941 the Germans were still winning. Only hindsight tells us that they had effectively lost the war by December. (I say hindsight although Churchill said so at the time)

If the Germans make peace before the Russian winter counter offensive people will be very confused. Everyone will ask questions.

'Why are you letting the Bolsheviks off the hook?'
'Why are you giving the Bolsheviks a second chance to attack us in the future?'
'Have you gone mad?'

If the Germans ask for peace after failing to take Moscow then it's a national humiliation for the Nazi regime. The army would probably launch a coup and there may be a civil war in the Reich.

The fact that the OP neds to throw ideas around like Hitler and Stalin dying at pretty much the same time to make it work shows how unrealistic it is.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
They would have gotten no peace. Just because Goering was in power, doesn't mean that the intense policy of Lebensraum still wouldn't be observed. Unless you also manage to kill off Himmler, Rosenberg, Goebbels and pretty much the entire head of the Nazi government.
Himmler and Rosenberg are the problems here, Goebbels was never all that interested in lebensraum. It's likely he'd drop whatever favour he has for the concept when you remove Hitler's controlling influence over our favorite rat-faced propagandist.
 
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