German Orde lands in Balticum ppart HRE

What would happen if the lands of the German Orde became part of the HRE ?
How would affect this the hidtory of Germany the Balticum Poland and Russis.
This mudt happen before the battle of Tannenberg.
 
As the [probable] resident expert on the Teutonic/'German' Order, I can say this is pretty much a redundancy. The Order was an agent of the Emperor, and the rights to lands conquered by the former were granted by the latter. In fact, much of the reason for the big blow-out that was the Teutonic-Polish-Lithuanian War, which culminated at Tannenberg/Grunwald, was the alliance and cooperation between the Luxembourg emperors and the Order, which antagonized the Polish so much that they went to war to tip the balance of power in their favor.

You are probably deriving the premise of your 'what if?' from playing Europa Universalis or something. Please don't take everything game developers do as hard fact---do your own research. Also, just as a tip, spellcheck/auto-correct is a thing..
 
As the [probable] resident expert on the Teutonic/'German' Order, I can say this is pretty much a redundancy. The Order was an agent of the Emperor, and the rights to lands conquered by the former were granted by the latter.

Mmm. I will point out that the Polish kings didn't see it this way.
 
Mmm. I will point out that the Polish kings didn't see it this way.

Exactly---they thought the Knights should do all the hard work of clearing out the Baltic pagans and hand all the land over to the Polish crown. The Golden Bull of Rimini (1227 IRRC) gave the Knights the rights to settle whatever they conquered, and the pope confirmed it later by granting them the rights to 'all Lithuania and Russia'.
 
Exactly---they thought the Knights should do all the hard work of clearing out the Baltic pagans and hand all the land over to the Polish crown. The Golden Bull of Rimini (1227 IRRC) gave the Knights the rights to settle whatever they conquered, and the pope confirmed it later by granting them the rights to 'all Lithuania and Russia'.

The Pope also claimed that England was a vassal of the Pope. I think nebulous claims of authority are different than "actually recognized as part of the Empire." For instance, when did Riga send delegates to the Diet?
 
The Pope also claimed that England was a vassal of the Pope. I think nebulous claims of authority are different than "actually recognized as part of the Empire." For instance, when did Riga send delegates to the Diet?

Didn't King John actually hand England to the pope and receive it back as vassal to Innocent III?
 
Didn't King John actually hand England to the pope and receive it back as vassal to Innocent III?

Yes, as part of a desperate attempt to avoid getting overthrown by his barons and invaded by the Capetians. For some reason, successor monarchs were skeptical of Papal claims of overlordship.
 
The Pope also claimed that England was a vassal of the Pope. I think nebulous claims of authority are different than "actually recognized as part of the Empire." For instance, when did Riga send delegates to the Diet?

Riga, Reval, Danzig, Elbing...these were all imperial cities under the Hanseatic League. They paid nominal taxes to the Order-State, but were recognized as protected imperial territory.
 
Riga, Reval, Danzig, Elbing...these were all imperial cities under the Hanseatic League. They paid nominal taxes to the Order-State, but were recognized as protected imperial territory.


Being a member of the Hanseatic League was not contingent on being a member of the Empire. Gdansk is probably the worst example you could pick, since it was seized by the Teutonic Knights in the early 14th century.

(Calling it Gdansk is a little anachronistic, but not as much as pretending that the Teutonic Knights were par tof the Holy Roman Empire, and winners get to write the maps).
 
Being a member of the Hanseatic League was not contingent on being a member of the Empire. Gdansk is probably the worst example you could pick, since it was seized by the Teutonic Knights in the early 14th century.

(Calling it Gdansk is a little anachronistic, but not as much as pretending that the Teutonic Knights were par tof the Holy Roman Empire, and winners get to write the maps).

Everything I've found suggests that the lands conquered by the Order were sanctioned by the HRE. How does that not make them 'part of' the empire, if at least only nominally? Those lands occupied by the Order which were de jure part of the Kingdom of Poland I can see being exempted, but why not the rest of the Order-State? Danzig and surrounding Pomerelia had been part of the HRE before it was taken over by the Order---why would it cease to be so?
 
Everything I've found suggests that the lands conquered by the Order were sanctioned by the HRE. How does that not make them 'part of' the empire, if at least only nominally? Those lands occupied by the Order which were de jure part of the Kingdom of Poland I can see being exempted, but why not the rest of the Order-State?


Because this isn't what happened? Here's Norman Davies' slant on it in Vanished Kingdoms:

"In 1226, the emperor's Golden Bull of Rimini stated that thduke of Mazovia should equip the Order to fight the pagans, and that the conquered territory should be Reichsfrei, that is, beyond imperial jurisdiction . . . . In 123, the self-contradictory Golden Bull of Rieti of Pope Gregory IX . . . subject[ed] the Order exclusively to papal authority."


Danzig and surrounding Pomerelia had been part of the HRE before it was taken over by the Order---why would it cease to be so?

Why do you think Pomerelia was Imperial, as opposed to Polish or Danish? Boleslow III doesn't sound like a German name, and he was a ruler in the region.

And again; where are the representatives of Riga in the Diet? The evidence that the Imperial courts were the last court of appeal in the region? The signs of, err, Imperial governance? To make the territory Imperial, you need something more than the document from some watery tart.

Sovereignty in the area was not black and white in OTL, and not helped by the fact that the Empire was a joke.
 
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