German nationalism without the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars

On the other hand, would the USA still turn more radical (universal male suffrage etc) without the example of the French Revolution, or would it remain a more stratified, aristocratic republic?

The Industrial Revolution and the rise of urbanites demanding voting rights will still occur, so universal male suffrage is still going to happen.
 
The Industrial Revolution and the rise of urbanites demanding voting rights will still occur, so universal male suffrage is still going to happen.
Ah there's another point, the early stages of the Industrial Revolution will likely spread to the continent much more quickly from Britain because no Napoleon means no Continental System which means trade and commerces remains normalized. This could be very good for Austria at least short term, as it will likely see Industrialization occur in the Austrian Netherlands and also try to attract industrialists to Bohemia and Austria Proper (perhaps also Galicia). This could led to an Austrian dominated Zollverein as Austria will need to be able to transport raw materials from Hungary and the Alps to the Low Countries.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I think Prussia is being counted out too quickly here. The first Partition put Prussia at the helm of east-central Europe, with Russia following her lead. Of course, if that doesn't come to fruition, you have a potential Anglo-Prussian bloc, which is quite a bit more powerful. One must remember that Austria has already been humiliated in the Silesian Wars.

The little backwater of Brandenburg, defeating the most powerful force in central Europe? It's the equivalent of Japan's victory over Russia in the very beginning of the 20th century. Germany is most likely not going to be united by Prussia in this world, but I don't think that means Prussia automatically has to join it either. This would be an interesting world. A Germany and a Prussia, and maybe even an Austria?
 

Deleted member 1487

I think Prussia is being counted out too quickly here. The first Partition put Prussia at the helm of east-central Europe, with Russia following her lead. Of course, if that doesn't come to fruition, you have a potential Anglo-Prussian bloc, which is quite a bit more powerful. One must remember that Austria has already been humiliated in the Silesian Wars.

The little backwater of Brandenburg, defeating the most powerful force in central Europe? It's the equivalent of Japan's victory over Russia in the very beginning of the 20th century. Germany is most likely not going to be united by Prussia in this world, but I don't think that means Prussia automatically has to join it either. This would be an interesting world. A Germany and a Prussia, and maybe even an Austria?


Perhaps. I depends on the wars with France, because they will be coming. But will they have the effect that the French revolution had on Germany? That is do not know, but I suspect not, because aristocratic France is unlikely to field as motivated an army or as successful of generals as revolutionary France. Without the occupation of Germany and the enforcement of French law which swept away the empire and the tiny statelets there is unlikely to be the exact same reaction in the German population. Basically the average person would not be involved in these wars, only the professional armies, which would not turn the Germans' focus outward against external enemies to the same extent.
 

Susano

Banned
AKA a thread in which Susano argues with people ;)

:D :D :D

Thing is, it didnt take Napolopn for revolutionary France to defeat everybody. Sure, it did take the invention of the mass army, but still, if problem-stricken revolutionry France can do it, so can a reformed royalist France. That is an idea I had for the Knockout after the Megasucession War, but of course, it never came that far ;) Meaning the "nationalism as reaction to the resentment to foreign dominance" could still happen.

Of course I think a major factor in how German nationalism was shaped in that period IOTL is how the HRE was abolished. The HRE after all was the German state. That it was a rotting corpose was in a way beside sthe point - as youve said, that has always been so, and in a way was seen as simply the German way (the "German Liberty", where liberty of course only refers to the princes...). That way was destroyed with the abolishment of the HRE, and hence calls for a, well, replacement were made. At Vienna, after all, the German nationalists did demand the restoration of the HRE.

If the HRE is not abolished... well. We still have the rise of the bougeoisie in the mid-18th century, and that means a widening class of people with political consciousness. It might take some more decades, but that growing political consciousness could eventually translate into yet another attempt at political reforms for the HRE. Of course, those attempts had been made for centuries, and trends towards such reforms came and went by. So, I dont think politically it would have changed much, but... well, as you might know Im generally averse to the theory that the French Revolution created nationalism ;) So I would say nationalism would simply come about with an increasing bourgeoise class.
 

Germaniac

Donor
What does this mean for Poland. Prussia continues to control "South Prussia" which includes Warsaw. Prussia will now control the heart of Poland for what could be an extended period of time. However this means that they basically trade the Rhineland for Poland.
 
I think Prussia is being counted out too quickly here. The first Partition put Prussia at the helm of east-central Europe, with Russia following her lead. Of course, if that doesn't come to fruition, you have a potential Anglo-Prussian bloc, which is quite a bit more powerful. One must remember that Austria has already been humiliated in the Silesian Wars.

The little backwater of Brandenburg, defeating the most powerful force in central Europe? It's the equivalent of Japan's victory over Russia in the very beginning of the 20th century. Germany is most likely not going to be united by Prussia in this world, but I don't think that means Prussia automatically has to join it either. This would be an interesting world. A Germany and a Prussia, and maybe even an Austria?
Your Prussophilia is showing my friend :p Austria was "humiliated" in the Seven Years War? My memory maybe faulty, but were it not for Tsarina Elizabeth's death wouldn't Austria have taken Silesia back? Prussia defeated Austria yes, but they didn't humiliate the Habsburgs by any stretch of the word. The peace accords were not those of Versailles.

But back to the topic at hand, the more I think about this, the more I believe that in some way this scenario would eventually result in at least a Habsburg as nominally head of a "Unified" Germany. I will concede, I don't know that Prussia would be part of this Germany, they could very well stay independent, however with so many Poles under their control. I could see a blood civil war eventually breaking out.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Your Prussophilia is showing my friend :p Austria was "humiliated" in the Seven Years War? My memory maybe faulty, but were it not for Tsarina Elizabeth's death wouldn't Austria have taken Silesia back? Prussia defeated Austria yes, but they didn't humiliate the Habsburgs by any stretch of the word. The peace accords were not those of Versailles.

But back to the topic at hand, the more I think about this, the more I believe that in some way this scenario would eventually result in at least a Habsburg as nominally head of a "Unified" Germany. I will concede, I don't know that Prussia would be part of this Germany, they could very well stay independent, however with so many Poles under their control. I could see a blood civil war eventually breaking out.

Congress Poland was kept under the Russian boot for effectively a century, and it wasn't the Poles that drove them out of it. Since this Prussia would be more Baltic-Central europe focused, I don't see why it can't keep them from becoming too much of a problem.

I also don't think they would take any more of Poland after the second partition(save of course, Danzig, which would be seized at the soonest possible opportunity).

However, for Germany, I don't know if we would see anything like a 'German Nation-state". You've got three powers who want to keep it fractured and small. Prussia only became interested because she suddenly got the very beating heart of Germany in 1815.

It's going to be very difficult to get any cohesive German state to form in these kinds of conditions.
 

Thande

Donor
Im generally averse to the theory that the French Revolution created nationalism ;) So I would say nationalism would simply come about with an increasing bourgeoise class.

Well I agree that the FR didn't create nationalism but I think it generated a new kind of nationalism, one that combined itself with other revolutionary ideas - as you say, if the HRE still exists, German nationalism would be focused on reforming and strengthening it, whereas the new nationalism the FR introduced in OTL was more about the people overturning the old order and founding new rationalist states.

Meanwhile, I invite you to join me in spectating as ImperialVienna and Nietszche re-enact the Seven Weeks' War ;)
 

Susano

Banned
Well I agree that the FR didn't create nationalism but I think it generated a new kind of nationalism, one that combined itself with other revolutionary ideas - as you say, if the HRE still exists, German nationalism would be focused on reforming and strengthening it, whereas the new nationalism the FR introduced in OTL was more about the people overturning the old order and founding new rationalist states.

Meanwhile, I invite you to join me in spectating as ImperialVienna and Nietszche re-enact the Seven Weeks' War ;)
:D :D :D
Okay, Ill try... starting at the comments I ignored at my last reply because I was about to go to bed.

Well - it did and would happen - but it would be dramatic and would shake the world, it wouldn't be casual; have you ever heard of the Diplomatic Revolution?
IMO, the Diplomatic Revolution is greatly overexaggerated. Prussia in alliance with Britain? Hell, that was the normal course of events for centuries. The real shocker of course was the Franco-Austrian alliance, but that more or less was caused by the Austrian-Prussian enemyship - and that in itself already was a revolution, seeing how Brandenburg-Prussia and Austria had fought side by side against France the entire late 17th and early 18th century. However, this "revolution" does get much less press, so I would say the (capitalised) Diplomatic Revolution is simply a bit, well, hyped.
...but as that has no bearing on the discussion, this merely as an aside :D

Well, Germany won't be a stomping ground for that generation's European conflict, which means a number of important things don't happen.
But seeing how pre-1815 Germany ALWAYS has been Europes military stomping ground for centuries - well, lets say if it arent the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars that are fought in Germany I do think some other europe wide cofnlicts, in the mold of the War of the Grand Alliance, War of the Spanish Succession, Seven Years War etc. will be fought in Germany. Of course, your conclusion is still right, because without the French revolution there will be no mass armies, and no outright dismantlement of defeated enemies - before the French Revolution that was... well, only most rarely done. So there would most likely indeed be no impetus for reforms. After all, as said, armies marching through Germanies? Thats the normal state of affairs.

Also, Germany is not destroyed again along the same lines of the 30 years war (which many contemporary writers drew parallels between to incite German popular sentiment, which wasn't helped by the French shooting civilian dissidents), it would be economically stronger and more populous.
Which however will unfortunately be more than evened out by the fact that the hundreds of custoim barriers in Germany will remain, and commerce laws will not be reformed. Early Napoleonic Germany, before Napoleon really robbed all manpower ressources, saw a bit of an economic boom after all.

Finally, the internal political divisions within Germany are not highlighted by having certain states (Bavaria to name one) fighting alongside France willingly.
Again, normal state of affairs as of the 18th century. Bavaria fought along France in the Spanish Succession already, and later in teh 18th century it was normal that different German states would take different sides. Such things wouldve been a shocker in the 17th century, but the 18th century? Not so much anymore.

All this likely also makes the popular revolutions of 1848 unlikely and more sedate reforms occur over a longer period. There is also unlikely to be a strong desire for Grossdeutschland, as much of the popular sentiment was based on patriotic feelings stirred up on the battlefield and stoked by student regiments that shed their blood for the idea of German unity.
Eh, Großdeutschland was the state of affairs in the HRE anyways... and as said, as the burgeoise grows, so will political awareness. It will not be as revolutionary most likely, but German politics simply will not be frozen in the 18th century. Of course, as said, wether this pressure for reforms (which Im sure will happeN) will actualyl suceed anything is highly doubtful. What I see is that eventually (basically, timewise, at the discretion of any timeline author, as the timing is so dependant on so many things) there will be a push for reforms of the HRE - but the HRE had seen dozens of such things, all basically fads that eventualyl faded again. And, sad as I think that is, I see no reason why this special attemnpt at reforms would be successful.

So I do see another war down the line, which, if it included the German states, something very likely, then it would have a similar effect to the Napoleonic wars.
I agree, as said. France very much was a dormant giant, and if not the Revolution, than something else will awake it. The question is the timing of course.

See, I think we need to find a middle ground here between Anglo authors' tendency to assume "Germany will remain small states forever with no inclination to get together, if the exact situation that led to unification in OTL is averted" and Susano's "every German peasant has had the burning heart's desire for a unified German nation state since 1648!"
:D
This would make for a good ASBWI: People militias and French revolution style mass armies at the Grand Alliance shouting "1648 or Fight!" :D

One interesting effect of a no French revolution and no Napoleon timeline would be that the prince-bishoprics (much disliked as they are on AH.com) would still exist, although I must admit that I do not know what effect they would have on German unification.
Well, IMO, its no coincidence that the Mediation of IOTL targetted the ecclestial territories and the imperial free cities. Hell, already Sickingen's revolution of the Impeiral Knights in the 16th century had as aim the abolishment of the clergicla territory and their division among the knights (to ensure their survival as an estate). They werent targeted before because... well, such things simply were not (or only rarely) done in Germany. German states just did not do outright conquest of another. There was after all still the Imperial Court to settle dispuites (after oh, one or two decades of court suit...). That attitude of course waned during the 18th century, together with respect for the imperila institutions in general, but that was what protected the ecclestial trerritories. But youc an bet that should the situation become cut-throat in Germany, then the ecclestial territories and the free citie swill be targetted first, most probably even before the smaller secular territories. Especially since basically every middle power bordered at least some ecclestial territory, so it would be a winning situation for everybdoy!
 
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