German Nationalism More like French Nationalism?

[Faeelin]

I'm not sure if this is possible, and this may be my half-assed idea of German/French nationalism, but...

French nationalism has always seemed assimilationist to me in a way that German nationalism traditionally was not. It was quite possible for people to immigrate, or be conquered by, France and become "French".

In contrast, it's hard to imagine Germany ever trying to assimilate the Poles and making them good Germans.

Is it possible to change that?

 

[Tripledot]

Given that German nationalism had a lot to do with uniting the various German states, maybe an earlier kingdom of Germany could help with this?

 

[King Nazar]

Given that German nationalism had a lot to do with uniting the various German states, maybe an earlier kingdom of Germany could help with this?

Indeed. France was basically a unified state since the Sun King Days. I guess, if you want France to be more like Germany, you'd need to keep the country decentralized for a bit.

England will be very happy with this.

 

[TFSmith121]

You know, there's an old joke:

I'm not sure if this is possible, and this may be my half-assed idea of German/French nationalism, but...

French nationalism has always seemed assimilationist to me in a way that German nationalism traditionally was not. It was quite possible for people to immigrate, or be conquered by, France and become "French".

In contrast, it's hard to imagine Germany ever trying to assimilate the Poles and making them good Germans.

Is it possible to change that?

"Scratch a Pole, find a Prussian"...

also told as:

"Scratch a Prussian, find a Pole."

Setting aside the brutalities of Nazi Germany in Poland (obviously, a big exception, but it may be the one that proves the rule) the dominant classes in both Prussia and Poland both tended to be landowning nobility/aristocrats, and there was a lot of intermarriage (borders being drawn and re-drawn helped, of course), so it is not impossible the two concepts of nationalism could have found some common ground.

Obviously, there were ethnic ("slavic" vs "teutonic"), religious, and language issues, but if the Prussians had been a little more accomodating (I know, tough to be accomodating Prussians) it is possible, I'd guess. Can Poles be the "Scots" of a Prussian/German state more like "England/Britain", maybe?

Maybe the liberals win in '48, and the Frankfurt Assembly's proposal for a constitutional monarchy goes forward? That has all sorts of ripples of its own, of course.

There was a reason there were (at least) two general Rommels in WW II, for example...

Best,

 

[LSCatilina]

Is it possible to change that?

Well, French nationalism was political-based by lack of another choice : you can't really rule over a large population with diverse origin, language, cultures, etc. without having an assimilationist and centralizing policy.

Fact that German identity (understood as distinguished and a identitary central marker) appeared later than French (mostly because German identity was often merged with Imperial, universalist tendencies) didn't helped.
You need some way to have Germany/HRE having a maintained hold on non-German territories, having enough royal authority to promote some sort of centralisation...

Well, I'm going to trick it a bit : have Protestant Germans creating their distinct state, some sort of more federal Prussia, while HRE/Habsburg manage to keep an hold on Southern Netherland, Rhineland, Bavaria, Austria (basically, Catholic HRE). It would be enough dominated by one dynasty to allow strong policies in this matter, and enough culturally diverse to promote and support a non-ethnic nationalism; while another German state, based on different identitary lines, is maintained.

 

[Janprimus]

I'm not sure if this is possible, and this may be my half-assed idea of German/French nationalism, but...

French nationalism has always seemed assimilationist to me in a way that German nationalism traditionally was not. It was quite possible for people to immigrate, or be conquered by, France and become "French".

In contrast, it's hard to imagine Germany ever trying to assimilate the Poles and making them good Germans.

Is it possible to change that?

That's no different from what various German states did, at least those neighbouring different cultures. Prussia, Austria, Saxony all assimilated other cultures, for instance in some areas Poles were assimilated by Prussia (but not in every region). Austria too is interesting in that regard.

France assimilating everyone quickly is a myth too, there still are albeit small groups of Flemish, German speakers, parts of France originally spoke Occitan and/or Franco-Provençal or Basque. Not to mention the various local Langue d'Oil dialect groups. That only, as in most European countries, really changed in the 19th century.

 

[LSCatilina]

France assimilating everyone quickly is a myth too, there still are albeit small groups of Flemish, German speakers, parts of France originally spoke Occitan and/or Franco-Provençal or Basque. Not to mention the various local Langue d'Oil dialect groups. That only, as in most European countries, really changed in the 19th century.

I disagree there : you had a diglossy situation in most of France since the XVth century in the north, and since the XVIth in the south. It can be traced, for example, from printed book languages, official documents, private but formal documents (as last wills, etc.). etc.
While the population maintained an usage of their language up to 20th century, French was used as well at least by the local elites on a daily basis since the XVIth and its usage only grew since then to the whole of population.

(Actually, I remember people complaining their language was too much influenced by French in the XIIIth century)

 

[Detlef]

What about Dutch immigrants, French Huguenots and the Ruhr Poles?
Although I agree in regard to the Poles in the eastern Prussian provinces.
Still, saying that assimilation never happened in Germany strikes me as wrong.

 

[Vingilótë]

I thought Germany did invest a great deal of effort in assimilating her various minorities. That said, I would say that nevertheless, French nationalism did arise from different roots than German nationalism, much of this deriving from the basis of Republicanism, in contrast to the German callbacks to Imperial lineage.

 

[Admiral Matt]

"Scratch a Pole, find a Prussian"...

also told as:

"Scratch a Prussian, find a Pole."

Setting aside the brutalities of Nazi Germany in Poland (obviously, a big exception, but it may be the one that proves the rule) the dominant classes in both Prussia and Poland both tended to be landowning nobility/aristocrats, and there was a lot of intermarriage (borders being drawn and re-drawn helped, of course), so it is not impossible the two concepts of nationalism could have found some common ground.

Obviously, there were ethnic ("slavic" vs "teutonic"), religious, and language issues, but if the Prussians had been a little more accomodating (I know, tough to be accomodating Prussians) it is possible, I'd guess. Can Poles be the "Scots" of a Prussian/German state more like "England/Britain", maybe?

Maybe the liberals win in '48, and the Frankfurt Assembly's proposal for a constitutional monarchy goes forward? That has all sorts of ripples of its own, of course.

There was a reason there were (at least) two general Rommels in WW II, for example...

Best,

I think Prussia is the natural place to start. From my reading, while becoming German was an impossible obstacle, becoming Prussian was easy.

 

[TFSmith121]

Yep; the "Two Rommels" is an interesting illustration of that...

I think Prussia is the natural place to start. From my reading, while becoming German was an impossible obstacle, becoming Prussian was easy.

General Rommel, meet General Rommel:


Juliuz


Erwin


Best,