German nationalism-exclusions?

Alsatian is a High German dialect, the High German bit is very important because if one were to translate the official name of German, it'd be High German.

Allot of Germany at the time still spoke their primary dialect and those dialects could and still do differ allot from the Standard Language. However most of the people that spoke such a dialect still thought of themselves as being German, the Alsatians did not. And THAT is what the rest of the Germans could not understand.
 
Except Alsatian don't speak german. It was the biggest problem of the german nationalists, as more than half of Germany didn't spoke proper german or didn't spoke german at all. It was for example forbidden to speak French and Alsatian during WWII in Alsace. The best example i have for Alsatian not being German, is the name of the cities : Strasbourg is Straßburg in German and Strossburi in Alsatian. Mulhouse is Mülhausen in German and Melhüsa in Asatian. And the grammar is really different. So if Alsatian is German, dutch, english, norwegian, swedish and danish are german too.

Alsatian does not differ more from Standard German than Swabian or Bavarian do, and there was no formalised Alsatian language. The situation really was no different than in many other parts of Germany. As to the question of mutual intelligbility, Dutch, Flemish and Danish are closer to neighbouring german dialects than Alsatian is to High German, but that is not a deciosive factor. The point is, Dutch, Flemish and Danish had dictionaries, national literatures and curricula. That was what made them languages in the eyes of the time. Many German nationalists deplored the fact that they had "lost" the Netherlands (and some hoped to regain them, though most of those were blood-and-soil race theory types). Alsatian had no such thing. Alsatians who studoied German would study High German, not an Alsatian language which they might speak at home, but not consider a language.
 
It's a question of what weights heavier: the influence of Holland, which will indeed be felt deep into Germany, or the influence of nearby German centers. Someone from Oldenburg might go to Bremen for business and Gottingen for university, and that would bind these territories closer to Germany. Of course, all that also depends on policies enacted (particularly on language, but also considering autonomy in the provinces).

OTL The Netherlands had a lot of influence outside its border. Places like Cleves, East-Frisia, Bentheim and Lingen basicly were Dutch vasals, even when they were Prussian. So although oldenburg is more or less a border area, i don't think it will turn the Netherlands German. At best it will turn some peripherical parts (like Oldenburg) German.
And it depends on the POD, as THorfinnsson says, you can butterfly away "Germans" as a nation starting in the middle ages.
Of course. I am just talking about post 1600-Netherlands. With an early POD you can easily butterfly the Dutch national identity or as you said you can butterfly away the German national identity (in my opion you can even do that with a POD as late as the 18th century).

Still with a POD in the 19th century (when German nationalism rose) you won't get a (willingly) German Netherlands. The Dutch identity was already far too strong (and it was since the 16th-17th century).


That said, how about the Swiss? Sure the Swiss didn't consider themselves German, but did the Germans consider the Swiss German? Did some German nationalists wanted to include the Swiss into Germany and if so why didn't they try?
 
That said, how about the Swiss? Sure the Swiss didn't consider themselves German, but did the Germans consider the Swiss German? Did some German nationalists wanted to include the Swiss into Germany and if so why didn't they try?

They did consider the German speaking Swiss to be German atleadt to the end of the 19th century, the Swiss National Identity really was'nt fully cemented until after the Sonderbund War and AFAIK in Europe Switzerland was viewed as a bunch of Germans, Italian and French all living in a single country until the 1930's.
 
That said, how about the Swiss? Sure the Swiss didn't consider themselves German, but did the Germans consider the Swiss German? Did some German nationalists wanted to include the Swiss into Germany and if so why didn't they try?

Somew German-speaking Swiss did consider themselves German (Pan-Germanism had minority appeal right until WWI, that put a stop to it). Some even envisioned Switzerland as kind of mini-Germanic Empire where the victorious German Swiss ruled subject French and Italian speakers. The majority, howebver,m felt Swiss, and the main reason why German nationalists gave up on the idea of integrating Switzerland into their Empire was that the Swiss continuously and clearly stated they were not interested. As in, AT ALL.
 
Except Alsatian don't speak german. It was the biggest problem of the german nationalists, as more than half of Germany didn't spoke proper german or didn't spoke german at all. It was for example forbidden to speak French and Alsatian during WWII in Alsace. The best example i have for Alsatian not being German, is the name of the cities : Strasbourg is Straßburg in German and Strossburi in Alsatian. Mulhouse is Mülhausen in German and Melhüsa in Asatian. And the grammar is really different. So if Alsatian is German, dutch, english, norwegian, swedish and danish are german too.

So what? The suburb of Heidelberg, Handschuhsheim, is referred to as "Händsche" by the locals. Similar discrepance exists all over the Kurpfalz, Rheinpfalz and other ares. Is it now Danish or what?

You argue from French standpoint. France has successfully eradicated all major dialects early on in the centralization quest and you think that it would be the same in Germany. In fact, If Alsatian is not German, then the only place where German was spoken in 19th century was the area around Hannover and Göttingen.

While some zealous idiot (even more so than the usual Nazi hacks) may have issued a prohibition on speaking Alsatian during Nazi occupation, it would have been impossible to enforce as it takes a very trained ear to differentiate someone from Mulhouse speaking Alsatian from someone from Mülheim speaking Alemanish...
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Nationalists usually made up the rules of whom belonged to the nation and who didn't according to realpolitik. There was no clear rules, the Dutch weren't Germans, since they hadn't considered themselves German since the mid 1500s. The Alsatian became "German", since Germany conquered Alsace and decided that the Alsatians were Germans.
 
Nationalists usually made up the rules of whom belonged to the nation and who didn't according to realpolitik. There was no clear rules, the Dutch weren't Germans, since they hadn't considered themselves German since the mid 1500s. The Alsatian became "German", since Germany conquered Alsace and decided that the Alsatians were Germans.

It goes a little further back than this, but basically yes. The Alsatians were never seen as a separate ethnicity. Thus, they were considered German. THe idea that you could speak German and consider yourself French :eek:
 
It goes a little further back than this, but basically yes. The Alsatians were never seen as a separate ethnicity. Thus, they were considered German. THe idea that you could speak German and consider yourself French :eek:

Alsatians do have their own "Pizza" called Tarte flambée actually, that could be a cullinary POD if Germany popularized the "Pizza" from Alsace before the Neapolitan one.

I think if the Netherlands were never part of Burgundy it is possible for them to identify as German.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Hm. Well, the King of Denmark offered to surrender the (entire) Danish Kingdom to the North German Confederation. Have that happen, and you may be able to turn the 'German Empire' into a more loosely integrated union of Germanic states, all keeping some measure of autonomy.

Highly unlikely to rope in the Dutch, but your odds are better this way. Another possibility is pushing Holland into German arms, perhaps from some kind of French threat?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Really? When did this happen, and why?
I don't have time to find the article, but during the war for Schleswig-Holstein, the Danish King offered to incorporate the whole of Denmark into the Union, on the condition the duchy remained in union with Denmark.
 
So what? The suburb of Heidelberg, Handschuhsheim, is referred to as "Händsche" by the locals. Similar discrepance exists all over the Kurpfalz, Rheinpfalz and other ares. Is it now Danish or what?

Alsatian has a largely different grammar (absence of genitive, only three tenses, no imperative) than German, a different phonology (no "bavarian" diphthong, older diphthong were conserved, palatisation of the long u, etc) and a different vocabulary (french loanwords AND archaisms).

You argue from French standpoint. France has successfully eradicated all major dialects early on in the centralization quest and you think that it would be the same in Germany. In fact, If Alsatian is not German, then the only place where German was spoken in 19th century was the area around Hannover and Göttingen.

No, i argue from an Alsatian standpoint. And German was largely spoke in Prussia in the 19th century, as modern german is basically medieval hochdeutsch spoken by people from Brandenburg. And actually, France is home to far more languages than Germany (Basque, Occitan, Flamand, Alsatian, Breton, Corse, Catalan, Francique, Gallo, Francoprovençal) despite our "evil" centralisation. And i didn't spoke about the Créoles, the Kanaks languages, the Melanesian languages and Tahitian. And most dialects are still spoken (the chtit is the best example).

While some zealous idiot (even more so than the usual Nazi hacks) may have issued a prohibition on speaking Alsatian during Nazi occupation, it would have been impossible to enforce as it takes a very trained ear to differentiate someone from Mulhouse speaking Alsatian from someone from Mülheim speaking Alemanish...

Say that to my grandfather who was in military jail for a few days for speaking Alsatian with a guy from another unit... People from Alemanic regions spoke hochdeutsch on a regular basis but Alsatian learned it after Alsatian (in their family) and French (in school). It was learned as a foreign language. And basically, in Alsace you could be punished as it would have been clearly obvious to german officials, and in the army Alsatian were known to the officers and commissars and were often alone in their units.

I wand also to point something. Serb and Croat, or Russian and Ukrainian are considered different languages. Alsatian is widely not considered a language, mainly due to the opposition of Pangermanists on one side (including protestant priest who refused to use Alsatian as they considered the language of Luther to be the only one worth speaking, it was a big opposition to Alsatian), and of some French Nationalist who wanted to eradicate everything that was not French.

As a wise linguist said : A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot
 
So what? The suburb of Heidelberg, Handschuhsheim, is referred to as "Händsche" by the locals.
Uhh, we still call "Hendesse" "Hendesse" here in Heidelberg, not "Händsche". "Hendessoi" and "Hendse" may also be acceptable in some circles, specifically if the person is from the area outside Heidelberg.

As for Alsatian, it's basically a specific low Aleman dialect with tons of French loanwords. Aleman is not German, even if the French equate the two words.
 
Hm. Well, the King of Denmark offered to surrender the (entire) Danish Kingdom to the North German Confederation. Have that happen, and you may be able to turn the 'German Empire' into a more loosely integrated union of Germanic states, all keeping some measure of autonomy.
Have the right polititians and this could slowly develop to less "Germanic" states.
 
I don't have time to find the article, but during the war for Schleswig-Holstein, the Danish King offered to incorporate the whole of Denmark into the Union, on the condition the duchy remained in union with Denmark.
He was pretty much the only person who thought that would be a good idea though. The liberals in Denmark, who were pretty influential at this point, were trying to absorb Slesvig and get rid of Holstein in an attempt to create a unified Danish state. A group that is nationalistic enough to want to let territory go to get rid of undesired minorities isn't going to accept being included as part of a new state where they are the minority. If the Prussians went for it I could see the Danes declaring a republic, while the British and French intervened to prevent the Prussians from gaining complete control of the entry to the Baltic. Not an ideal way to start the unification of Germany.
 
Highly unlikely to rope in the Dutch, but your odds are better this way. Another possibility is pushing Holland into German arms, perhaps from some kind of French threat?

a reverse schlieffen plan while germany goes east in 1914? :D

also, i'm austrian (immigrated) and can read dutch just fine, i get ~85% of what's written, more than my parents after 20 years in austria, but i've never been to the netherlands and never learned dutch. it's definitely in the language group.
 
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