German mountain divisions don't attack torward Sukhumi

Catspoke

The German Mountain divisions 1st and 4th during August 42 during Fall Blau, made an effort to take Sukhumi across the Caucasus which was a doomed effort.

What if these elite divisions efforts were applied toward Tupase or Grozny instead?? (OTL the initial August drive toward Tupase was made by motorized divisions, odd considering the terrain, what if the Mountain divisions lead instead???
OR the mountain divisions assisted First Panzer Army in the rush towards Grozny?

(Supply is always an issue but supplying the mountain divisions toward Sukhumi would seem harder OTL.)

Would taking Tupase or Grozny materially effect things????

(if the Germans took Tupase it seems you could free up a couple of divisions for a reserve behind the front which would be handy in November.)
 
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thaddeus

Donor
where did the Soviet fleet disperse to? will have to go back and research that, they might "leapfrog" them with Tuapse?

just as in the Baltic, if they could eliminate the Soviet naval bases (and fleet) it would pay continuing benefits.

just IMO, Maykop was the limit of what they could capture.
 

Catspoke

thaddeus said:
where did the Soviet fleet disperse to? will have to go back and research that, they might "leapfrog" them with Tuapse?

just as in the Baltic, if they could eliminate the Soviet naval bases (and fleet) it would pay continuing benefits.

just IMO, Maykop was the limit of what they could capture.
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After Sevastopol it was Batum for the big Soviet naval units (Stalin was nervous about naval losses so they were inactive, except the smaller ships) . Any German attack over the highest Caucasus mountains like into Sukhumi isn't going to work, you couldn't trace supply through the high mountains once the weather gets bad late September and you can't trace sea supply by until Batum is captured, and there were significant Soviet armies that can and did get released from Turkish border in the area.

Perhaps instead the elite Mountain divisions could rush toward Tupase in August when it was more lightly defended (OTL after failing to take Sukhumi in August, early September most of the mountain corps was involved in the October attack toward Tupase which made some progress before halted by bad weather). The motorized divisions used OTL poorly in rough terrain could be used in flank support instead of the light infantry divisions which could optionally provide more pressure Novorossiysk.

Assuming this works the Soviets would still have naval bases at Batum and Sukhumi so wouldn't change a lot navally, although the Soviet light craft and air force would be further away from Kerch supply crossing and the Germans could maybe use Novorossiysk is the Soviets have to retreat from the Cement factory there as a result.

The biggest effect would be the shorter line and the October offensive is no longer necessary and some divisions (2 or 3 maybe) could go into a reserve or could go into the October Stalingrad city offensive.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Catspoke said:
Perhaps instead the elite Mountain divisions could rush toward Tupase in August when it was more lightly defended (OTL after failing to take Sukhumi in August, early September most of the mountain corps was involved in the October attack toward Tupase which made some progress before halted by bad weather). The motorized divisions used OTL poorly in rough terrain could be used in flank support instead of the light infantry divisions which could optionally provide more pressure Novorossiysk.

Assuming this works the Soviets would still have naval bases at Batum and Sukhumi so wouldn't change a lot navally, although the Soviet light craft and air force would be further away from Kerch supply crossing and the Germans could maybe use Novorossiysk is the Soviets have to retreat from the Cement factory there as a result.
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yeah, it's kind of "late in the day" regarding naval matters? my speculation is always the KM could have sent a more robust force, u-boats, S-boats, and if possible some larger "commercial ships" (which could have been converted)

if they had contested the evacuation of Odessa it could create something of domino effect on Sevastopol, or the Soviets have to drain from somewhere else?

it is commonly reported their repair base was at Novorossiysk, so any fleeing ships, if damaged, would be difficult to bring back into service.

certain what you are suggesting brings some logic to their "marauding around" the Caucasus, where would they absolutely need to advance from Maykop though? that needs to be held, and brought back into service.
 

Catspoke

thaddeus said:
yeah, it's kind of "late in the day" regarding naval matters? my speculation is always the KM could have sent a more robust force, u-boats, S-boats, and if possible some larger "commercial ships" (which could have been converted)

if they had contested the evacuation of Odessa it could create something of domino effect on Sevastopol, or the Soviets have to drain from somewhere else?

it is commonly reported their repair base was at Novorossiysk, so any fleeing ships, if damaged, would be difficult to bring back into service.

certain what you are suggesting brings some logic to their "marauding around" the Caucasus, where would they absolutely need to advance from Maykop though? that needs to be held, and brought back into service.
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I think part of it was by the time they could get the naval force, small subs, sboats, railed to danube, shipped downstream, and made operational again they thought Barbarossa would be over, and they wouldn't be needed, so yeah more axis naval assets could have gotten there earlier, a lot of Seibel ferries were wasted on lake ladoga in 1942 that failed to do anything meaning full that would have been useful running supplies up to Stalingrad up the Don from the Sea of Azov at least.
 

Gannt the chartist

thaddeus said:
there is a river that reaches the Black Sea called the Danube, but the above mentioned vessels were not optimized to be in any way disassembled for transport, something the KM schemed for the Type XXIII u-boat.

30th U-boat Flotilla - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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The First problem being that any transport takes space from something else. The second Problem being the Black sea Fleet with 1 BB, 6Cruisers, 3 Large DD, 11 DD 5 old DD 15 sloop types, 44 subs and 84 MTB. And its not until the los of Odessa and Sevastopol that the Soviet Navy starts to degrade significantly.

So what are you going to waste there in 1941.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Catspoke said:
I think part of it was by the time they could get the naval force, small subs, sboats, railed to danube, shipped downstream, and made operational again they thought Barbarossa would be over, and they wouldn't be needed, so yeah more axis naval assets could have gotten there earlier, a lot of Seibel ferries were wasted on lake ladoga in 1942 that failed to do anything meaning full that would have been useful running supplies up to Stalingrad up the Don from the Sea of Azov at least.
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Gannt the chartist said:
The First problem being that any transport takes space from something else. The second Problem being the Black sea Fleet with 1 BB, 6Cruisers, 3 Large DD, 11 DD 5 old DD 15 sloop types, 44 subs and 84 MTB. And its not until the los of Odessa and Sevastopol that the Soviet Navy starts to degrade significantly.

So what are you going to waste there in 1941.
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for a service branch that wanted an inordinate amount of resources devoted to itself, they really contributed precious little? (they bottled up the Soviet fleets in both Baltic and Black Seas, but several critical evacuations took place that really helped the Soviets)

the KM had the small LS attack boats, that could have been more easily moved, for the early stages? the MFPs/AFPs were employed everywhere, they ended up with 100 in the Black Sea, would a large flotilla from the onset really be a net negative for their transportation "system?"
 

Gannt the chartist

thaddeus said:
for a service branch that wanted an inordinate amount of resources devoted to itself, they really contributed precious little? (they bottled up the Soviet fleets in both Baltic and Black Seas, but several critical evacuations took place that really helped the Soviets)

the KM had the small LS attack boats, that could have been more easily moved, for the early stages? the MFPs/AFPs were employed everywhere, they ended up with 100 in the Black Sea, would a large flotilla from the onset really be a net negative for their transportation "system?"
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Because the plan is to defeat the Red Army in a series of battles within 600km of the border then conduct a railway march forward to the line Archangelsk - Astrakhan. by Autumn.

So while there may be hold outs in some fortresses the rest of the country will be overrun.

The fact that this comes of wheels PDQ does not alter the fact that this is the plan and there is enough evidence up to December 41 that it is working.
 
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