German Kaisereich dissolves before ww1

How could the German Reich of 1871 fail after a few decades instead of becoming an industrialized superpower ? (I beg your pardon for the misspelling of Kaiserreich in the title)
 
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Maybe you could build something interesting if you turned the kulturkampf into some kind of religious civil war.

But this would not prevent Germany, even if the Reich fell apart, from being an industrial superpower as a whole. And especially Prussia which concentrated industrial power in Germany.

What would be interesting would be to have Prussia itself break apart because of religious civil war (prussian Rhineland being mainly catholic).
 
Given the amount of national feeling in Germany and the strains the system was able to withstand IOTL, a war is about your only chance. The great majority of people in Germany wanted to be in Germany. Even the majority or state governments appreciated the benefits of the Reich. I doubt Baden or Mecklenburg-Strelitz would have taken independence in, say, 1875 if it had been offered (Bavaria maybe).

If you're open for PODs before 1871, a less conciliatory, more oppressive Prussian regime leading to a less liberal constitution and a harsher Kulturkampf might stoke serious particularist ambitions in Southwest Germany.
 
Given the amount of national feeling in Germany and the strains the system was able to withstand IOTL, a war is about your only chance. The great majority of people in Germany wanted to be in Germany. Even the majority or state governments appreciated the benefits of the Reich. I doubt Baden or Mecklenburg-Strelitz would have taken independence in, say, 1875 if it had been offered (Bavaria maybe).

If you're open for PODs before 1871, a less conciliatory, more oppressive Prussian regime leading to a less liberal constitution and a harsher Kulturkampf might stoke serious particularist ambitions in Southwest Germany.
Even in that case, the catholic south would go for a reform not for a breakaway.

I try another way: How about a revolution lead by the SPD and other moderate elements? Topple the Kaiser! Go full Republic!
 
Unlikely, as even in 1848, the "Paulskirchenverfassung" Constitution of St. Pauls Church envisiond a crowned head of state. The Prussian King in this case.
 
Unlikely, as even in 1848, the "Paulskirchenverfassung" Constitution of St. Pauls Church envisiond a crowned head of state. The Prussian King in this case.
And one of the reasons 1848 didnt succeed was that the parliament was pretty undecided on that matter. The abolishment of the monarchy was hardly a fringe position.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
For Germany to tear itself apart there would have to be a crises between either the Monarch and the Reichstag or the Monarch and the Princes or the Princes and the Reichstag

Not sure how you would bring one about. Willie's too clever to get into it with the Reichstag, his Grandfather to endeared. Maybe if the Emperor Frederick lived

A fight between Willie and the Princes is possible if Willie made some insane power grab but again think he is too clever for something like that
 
Even in that case, the catholic south would go for a reform not for a breakaway.

I try another way: How about a revolution lead by the SPD and other moderate elements? Topple the Kaiser! Go full Republic!

Possible, I suppose, but I doubt it would lead to a breakup (except maybe in the case of border areas that aren't ethnically German). To be successful, a revolution hasd to succeed in Prussia. As long as Prussia is in the opposing camp, no other state could break away as a republic. But onxce the revolution is successful in Prussia, no other state could withstand it. And the erlected governments of all German states would vote to stay in Germany, so that would just produce a German Republic.

Maybe the new republican government would allow plebiscites (or simply give back/release) North Schleswig, the Metz region, even all of Alsace-Lorraine, and the Polish-speaking areas of Prussia, but I doubt it.

Edit: even if they did, what would Posen do?
"Hey, Polish brothers, you're free now!"
(looks over shoulder at Russia) "Can we stay? It's dangerous out there."
"You're independent and free! Be your own country!"
"Ummm.... Austria-Hungary? Can we join you? Please???"
 

abc123

Banned
I wonder, if Prussia tried to more centralise the Reich, like say, forming unified Imperial Army, could that be the impetus?
 
I wonder, if Prussia tried to more centralise the Reich, like say, forming unified Imperial Army, could that be the impetus?

No German Nationalism was very strong in all of Germany and the army was technically unified so there wouldn't be that much of an unrest you can prevent Germany from forming but not split it up.
 
I wonder, if Prussia tried to more centralise the Reich, like say, forming unified Imperial Army, could that be the impetus?

If it had tried to force this on Bavaria it would certainly have created a crisis, and if relations with Austria were strained (maybe Rudolph lives and Franz Josef abdicates some time to give his son free rein/reign)...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
For Germany to tear itself apart there would have to be a crises between either the Monarch and the Reichstag or the Monarch and the Princes or the Princes and the Reichstag

Not sure how you would bring one about. Willie's too clever to get into it with the Reichstag, his Grandfather to endeared. Maybe if the Emperor Frederick lived

A fight between Willie and the Princes is possible if Willie made some insane power grab but again think he is too clever for something like that

Bismarck indeed had plans for a scenario, that involved the dismissal of the Reichsverfassung against the Reichstag. The new constituition would have been a Union of princes and Senates without participation of representative bodies.

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j...BI59sdhM-aZBDwg&bvm=bv.76802529,d.ZWU&cad=rja
 

LordKalvert

Banned
Bismarck indeed had plans for a scenario, that involved the dismissal of the Reichsverfassung against the Reichstag. The new constituition would have been a Union of princes and Senates without participation of representative bodies.

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j...BI59sdhM-aZBDwg&bvm=bv.76802529,d.ZWU&cad=rja

For some bizarre reason, that jogged my memory of an incident that happened at Nicholas II coronation in Moscow:

In June 1896 the prince travelled to Moscow to represent his father at the coronation of Tsar Nicholas II. At a garden party organised by the city’s German community, some hapless functionary offered a toast in honour of Prince Henry of Prussia – the Kaiser’s younger brother, who attended on behalf of the Prussian monarch – and the German princes who had travelled to Russia “in his entourage”. Before the raised glasses could be emptied, however, Prince Ludwig intervened indignantly. The German princes were not vassals of the Kaiser, but his allies, he snapped at the speaker, and Prussia owed them a great deal – including the imperial crown. While the icy silence that ensued and Prince Henry’s swift exit made clear that he had caused offence, Ludwig showed only scant remorse. Even when forced to visit the Kaiser in person to rectify the situation a few weeks later, the Bavarian prince still complained that Germany’s non-Prussian princes, were often unjustly treated like vassals. The Kaiser may have crowed about having forced Ludwig to “go to Canossa”, but Catholic and particularist circles and their newspapers celebrated the gutsy Wittelsbacher for clarifying that Bavaria would give the Reich its due – but no more. The “Moscow Incident” made the headlines not just in Germany, but in Russia, Austria, France and Switzerland with questions being asked about the unity of the Reich.

Its only a toast but in the ultra macho world of Princes where face is everything, who knows?


http://heirstothethrone-project.net/?page_id=645
 
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