German Invasion of Switerzland
- Thread starter Gurroruo
- Start date
The Swiss battle plan was to retreat into the mountains and basically let the Germans have free reign over the country. So the invasion would go exceedingly well for the Wehrmacht since running out of fuel is the only thing that can halt their advance across the areas of Switzerland that matter, i.e. the places that contain population.
shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
Well first you need a reason to have the Germans move into Switzerland. How about this- after Ausschluss and Sudentenland, Hitler, in perhaps a moment of madness, decides he needs to Ausschluss Denmark, The Netherlands, and German Switzerland, as to create a pan-Germanic State, putting his Poland Plans on the backburner for the meantime. Now of course, he needs someone on his side, so lets say Italy. He has Operation Christmas Tree planned up, and makes an agreement with Mussolini to invade and divide Switzerland, not considering the Swiss battleplan and expecting a full on war. Now let's say Mussolini, in a moment of clarity, tells Hitler to sit on a long pole- okay, Hitler is pissed, but decides to go ahead anyway, getting a hard on for the idea of a new Holy Roman Empire, upon which he can launch Lebensraum. He Invades Switzerland, only for the Heer to find the Swiss retreating into the mountains. Hitler annexes the German speaking regions, and turns the rest into Protectorate. However, he faces a Partisan War that diverts his attention from the rest of his Ausschluss plan, with the Italians and French supporting the rebels. Of course, this will not do, so Hitler launches a Blitz through the low lands and France, and attacks Italy through the Alps. Both are, however, able to hold off better as they've been anticipating an attack, and turn the front lines into meat grinders, although end up overrun anyway. Pinned down in now France and Italy as well, Hitler now fights off a coalition of Britain and Poland, who attack the bogged down Germany. Economy collapses overnight, and Hitler is deposed of in a Military Coup.
I admit that's not the most realistic, but its the first one I could come up with off the top of my head.
I admit that's not the most realistic, but its the first one I could come up with off the top of my head.
Switzerland will become a bleeding ulcer for Germany, and using the sort of terror tactics they used against the Soviet partisans against fellow Aryans - cognitive dissonance. As always, the important question is why? A neutral Switzerland is useful to the Germans, if they occupy most of the country and have to fight a partisan war where the partisans are right next door they lose all that and more. When they were winning, invading Switzerland gains nothing and costs much, when they are losing there are not a few Nazis and Nazi organizations that are using Switzerland to hide loot where the victors can't get it, and use Switzerland as a bolt hole to say nothing of not having the resources to do it.
Yes there were plans for Operation Tannenbaum. There were US plans for a war against Canada, one against Mexico. I'm sure similar plans existed in the military file cabinets of France, Britain, and other major powers. Need to find a reason for this to happen, either a "rational" one or something that fits with Hitler's admittedly demented world view. If the nazis were convinced somehow that Switzerland was going to attack them as part of the Allies...
Yes there were plans for Operation Tannenbaum. There were US plans for a war against Canada, one against Mexico. I'm sure similar plans existed in the military file cabinets of France, Britain, and other major powers. Need to find a reason for this to happen, either a "rational" one or something that fits with Hitler's admittedly demented world view. If the nazis were convinced somehow that Switzerland was going to attack them as part of the Allies...
If Wehrmacht invade the Swiss, it to get German speaking part of Swiss into Reich and the Swiss bank accounts.
but there also another player with interest in Swiss: Mussolini
His plans for bigger Italy also include to take over the Italian speaking part of the Swiss.
But for the occupying forces it will not be easy, they face hell by resistance and partisans from the Mountains area.
the Wehrmacht and SS answer with cruelties toward swiss people, only to get more resistance and partisans
in the end the Germans and Italy get hell out Swiss as the Allies arrive from south and west despite GRÖFAZ orders to fight to last man
after War Swiss Government will demand reparation from Germany and Italy
it could be that Swiss become bigger nation by seizing part of south Germany and north Italy
now property of Swiss, Neuschwanstein Castle.
and certain the Government and Military will go for the Swiss atomic bomb, to prevent a next Invasion
but there also another player with interest in Swiss: Mussolini
His plans for bigger Italy also include to take over the Italian speaking part of the Swiss.
But for the occupying forces it will not be easy, they face hell by resistance and partisans from the Mountains area.
the Wehrmacht and SS answer with cruelties toward swiss people, only to get more resistance and partisans
in the end the Germans and Italy get hell out Swiss as the Allies arrive from south and west despite GRÖFAZ orders to fight to last man
after War Swiss Government will demand reparation from Germany and Italy
it could be that Swiss become bigger nation by seizing part of south Germany and north Italy
now property of Swiss, Neuschwanstein Castle.
and certain the Government and Military will go for the Swiss atomic bomb, to prevent a next Invasion
Last edited:
I agree.
No matter how good marksmen they were claimed to be, these were essentially well-trained militia. In a sustained battle, even when fighting defensively for their homes, they wouldn't have fared well against the Wehrmacht. Marksmanship is great, but the German superiority in aircraft and armoured vehicles would have seen them overrun any resistance in the lowlands.
Plus this depends on when the time is. Guisan doesn't come up with the idea of the National Redoubt until late 1940.
If, as people are suggesting, the Swiss retreat and fight a guerilla war, you've got to bear in mind a couple of things (Not saying it won't happen but things to think about):
1. Its really, really, hard to pull non-combatants into the mountains in large numbers for a long period of time. If you see a Nazi occupation lasting, say, 1940-44, you're going to see many wanting to just go home and get on with their lives. This would extend to militia too. What were the Swiss plans for feeding all these people?
2. The Germans proved themselves pretty good at suppressing partisan groups in other parts of Europe. It will be brutal, and the Swiss will hold out in pockets, but it won't go all their own way.
3. Switzerland is a long way from support if Italy is part of the Axis. With no sea access and limited, long-distance and risky, air access, they are going to be one of the worst supplied resistance movements in terms of Allied material and experts.
TinyTartar
Banned
I think the Germans would do a lot better than you think. For one thing, they'd have the Italians in on it. The Germans and Italians combined had a very strong force of mountain divisions who would acquit themselves well. Also, they would have total air superiority and vehicle superiority, which counts for more than you think.
The Swiss defense would be disjointed, relying on natural advantages that would be cut off and surrounded.
I am not saying it would be a cakewalk, there would be losses. But I think the Germans could win in under 4 months if it is done after the Fall of France. Switzerland would be surrounded and forced to defend itself on 4 sides.
Small arms are not usually what causes a ton of casualties anyways in WW2 battles, so Swiss rifle prowess is something I find to be grossly overstated.
And do not forget the impact that the Swiss Nazis might play.
The Swiss defense would be disjointed, relying on natural advantages that would be cut off and surrounded.
I am not saying it would be a cakewalk, there would be losses. But I think the Germans could win in under 4 months if it is done after the Fall of France. Switzerland would be surrounded and forced to defend itself on 4 sides.
Small arms are not usually what causes a ton of casualties anyways in WW2 battles, so Swiss rifle prowess is something I find to be grossly overstated.
And do not forget the impact that the Swiss Nazis might play.
It was not just rifles, though they were very good rifles. There were (and are) vast numbers of other small arms floating about and there was NO registration required for any of them, there were even SMG competitions for civilians and there were a lot of LMG's of various types in circulation amongst civilains. These would all be used by skilled users with a long period of militia training.
Certainly, while the amount of armour and modern aircraft available were limited there was enough to really annoy the Germans.
For those who laugh about Swiss military prowess, I can only speak about what the situation is today. The Swiss Airforce is generally regarded as a highly capable, well trained force, their army units conduct peacekeeping activities and from what I have been told by a friend in the British Army in the Balkans were extremely good indeed.
Certainly, while the amount of armour and modern aircraft available were limited there was enough to really annoy the Germans.
For those who laugh about Swiss military prowess, I can only speak about what the situation is today. The Swiss Airforce is generally regarded as a highly capable, well trained force, their army units conduct peacekeeping activities and from what I have been told by a friend in the British Army in the Balkans were extremely good indeed.
Dayton Kitchens
Banned
I don't laugh at Swiss abilities.
But over the years I've found the general idea of "armed neutrality" i.e. that "nobody bothers the Swiss because they are such bad asses" to be ridiculous.
Face it. The reason no one bothers the Swiss is that they aren't worth the trouble.
For a small nation with bigger neighbours, trying to look like bothering you would be more trouble than it is worth is a defensive strategy and a form of deterrence all of its own. But I'd argue that's even more like Finland than Switzerland. The Swiss are not bothered because, what with all those Swiss bank accounts and safe deposit boxes and whatnot, they are more valuable to their neighbours if they are left to their own devices as a neutral place to stash stuff in confidence. That they have personal assault rifles and can use them is just a bonus.