German I-400/Surcouf?

Ramontxo

Donor
One use for an Axis Surcouf (about the only one i can think of) would be to navigate to the USA west coast and lob from long range (32800 yards range, 3 rounds per minute 300 shells per gun*) some high explosive shells here and there. No real damage but tons of political consequences...

*http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_8-50_m1924.htm

WNFR_8-50_m1924_Surcouf_side_pic.jpg
 
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quick research has the Germans using 2x2 5" gun turrets, 100 tons! (and assume they would be carrying shells for these guns? lol)

seems better to try and carry some design of fast attack boat (OTL designs from 8 - 13 tons) similar to those carried on auxiliary cruisers?

Sounds like the British HMS X1

HMS-X1.jpg
 
The Germans did plan to launch two or three Stukas transported by U-boat and then re-assembled in Central America to bomb the eastern locks on the Panama Canal. The scheme was cancelled after just before the sub was due to leave Germany.
 
One use for an Axis Surcouf (about the only one i can think of) would be to navigate to the USA west coast and lob from long range (32800 yards range, 3 rounds per minute 300 shells per gun*) some high explosive shells here and there. No real damage but tons of political consequences...

*http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_8-50_m1924.htm

WNFR_8-50_m1924_Surcouf_side_pic.jpg

There was a attempt to attack a S American oil refinery with a sub mounted 105mm gun. This failed & was not tried again.

Every time I look at the Sucrof I see a submersible light cruiser, not a regular 'submarine'.

The Germans did plan to launch two or three Stukas transported by U-boat and then re-assembled in Central America to bomb the eastern locks on the Panama Canal. The scheme was cancelled after just before the sub was due to leave Germany.

The book 'Target America' has a long list of half assed & worse Axis plans for attacking the continental US. Leaving aside the submarine campaigns on the US east coast and Carribean the Italian and Japanese plans were more executable than the German plans. The Japanese actually managed to drop a few aircraft bombs & lob a few cannon shells across the beach.
 
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This wouldn't be too hard in theory. The Germans built 1500t subs, so I suppose with a limited amount of fiddling, you might be able to install a 15cm gun onboard. The gun would not be mounted in a moveable turret: to retarget, the submarine would have to move, but as this is a mere terror weapon, it doesn't really matter. Maybe a few Nebelwerfers could be added as well.

Unfortunately, in practise, the boat would be slower than the average U-Boat, take longer to dive than the average U-Boat, and be completely useless at doing what a U-Boat did best: sink ships.

I would also argue if you were going to go to the effort of getting this vessel to North America, sending a 10 man SS Commando team with the vessel might be a good idea.
 
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I would also argue if you were going to go to the effort of getting this vessel to North America, sending a 10 man SS Commando team with the vessel might be a good idea.

They landed two teams and managed to blow it both times. In one case a 18 y/o Coast Guard sentry on Long Island busted the team as they landed. In the other one of the team members turned traitor a day or two after they landed in Florida.
 
One use for an Axis Surcouf (about the only one i can think of) would be to navigate to the USA west coast and lob from long range (32800 yards range, 3 rounds per minute 300 shells per gun*) some high explosive shells here and there. No real damage but tons of political consequences...

I used to do artillery for a living. After pondering effects tables, explosives, and target construction I could see some real damage occuring if some one ashore can set up a target refrence point known to the ships gunnery chief they could get reasonablly accurate fires. Particularly if they can get to about 66% of the maximum range of the cannon. A target like a chemical factory, oil refinery, or storage facility for either is vulnerable to 600, or even just 150 15cm rounds on target in 25-30 minutes.
 

Deleted member 1487

They landed two teams and managed to blow it both times. In one case a 18 y/o Coast Guard sentry on Long Island busted the team as they landed. In the other one of the team members turned traitor a day or two after they landed in Florida.
The reason they failed was that there were members of the teams that betrayed the operation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius#Mission_betrayed
Realizing that the mission was going to be doomed after the encounter with the Coast Guard, Dasch decided he had a secret of his own. The day after the landing at Amagansett, he called Burger, the most guarded and disciplined member of the team, into the upper-story hotel room the two men shared. He walked over to the window and opened it wide. "You and I are going to have a talk," Dasch said, "And if we disagree, only one of us will walk out that door—the other will fly out this window." He then revealed the truth to Burger: he had no intention of going through with the mission. He hated the Nazis and wanted Burger on his side when he turned the entire plot over to the FBI. Burger smiled. Having spent seventeen months in a Nazi concentration camp, his own feelings for the party were less than warm. He too had been planning to betray the mission. They agreed to defect to the United States immediately.
Shaken but not discouraged, Dasch ordered Burger to stay put and keep an eye on the other men. On 15 June, Dasch phoned the New York office of the FBI from a pay-telephone on Manhattan's Upper West Side explaining who he was and asked to convey the information to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. When the FBI agent was trying to figure out if he was talking to a crackpot, Dasch hung up. Four days later, he took a train to Washington, D.C. and checked in at the Mayflower Hotel. Dasch then walked into the FBI’s headquarters carrying a briefcase, asking to speak with Director Hoover. Dasch bounced from office to office until finally Assistant Director D.M. Ladd, the agent in charge of the manhunt, agreed to humor him with five minutes of his time. Dasch angrily repeated his story after he was dismissed as a crackpot by numerous agents. He finally convinced the FBI by dumping his mission's entire budget of $84,000 on the desk of Assistant Director D. M. Ladd.[15] At this point, he was taken seriously and interrogated for hours.[16] Besides Burger, none of the other German agents knew they were betrayed. Over the next two weeks, Burger and the other six were arrested.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
I used to do artillery for a living. After pondering effects tables, explosives, and target construction I could see some real damage occuring if some one ashore can set up a target refrence point known to the ships gunnery chief they could get reasonablly accurate fires. Particularly if they can get to about 66% of the maximum range of the cannon. A target like a chemical factory, oil refinery, or storage facility for either is vulnerable to 600, or even just 150 15cm rounds on target in 25-30 minutes.


203 mm Shells. But IMHO any real damage would be dwarfed by the consequences of its actions. (Basically the revenge of an, very much angry, America)
 

Deleted member 1487

I used to do artillery for a living. After pondering effects tables, explosives, and target construction I could see some real damage occuring if some one ashore can set up a target refrence point known to the ships gunnery chief they could get reasonablly accurate fires. Particularly if they can get to about 66% of the maximum range of the cannon. A target like a chemical factory, oil refinery, or storage facility for either is vulnerable to 600, or even just 150 15cm rounds on target in 25-30 minutes.
Well there was the failed shelling of Curacao:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Curaçao
 
There was a attempt to attack a S American oil refinery with a sub mounted 105mm gun. This failed & was not tried again.

I used to do artillery for a living. After pondering effects tables, explosives, and target construction I could see some real damage occuring if some one ashore can set up a target refrence point known to the ships gunnery chief they could get reasonablly accurate fires. Particularly if they can get to about 66% of the maximum range of the cannon. A target like a chemical factory, oil refinery, or storage facility for either is vulnerable to 600, or even just 150 15cm rounds on target in 25-30 minutes.

the idea (or one of ideas) for Operation Neuland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Neuland was to target the tankers and start a conflagration(?)

think your analysis lays out better plan and probably the best use for cruiser type submarine.
 
Yeah, but the most likely resources to get used will be Lockheed Hudsons (or Venturas) and K class blimps, which doesn't greatly impact much directly. I suppose they could draw in other patrol aircraft, but that would be like drafting prime racehorses into riding schools.
 

Deleted member 1487

It always struck me that the US missed an opportunity here for a 'double cross' type setup and also that they badly treated both Dasch and Burger who were both effectively working against Nazi aims and whose actions helped the US!
Part of the problem was the need to appease the public, so they went really harsh; a later mission in 1944 had the German agent treated much less harshly, but then again if you look at the way they were treating young stay behind spies the US was executing 15 year old boys in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Theater_%28World_War_II%29#Operation_Magpie

As we discussed in another thread the Allies were not particularly nice to the guys they did work with via the OSS in Europe; I think it was Carl Schwarmberger that said there was one instance where a German POW volunteered to do a mission in Germany, a guarantee to be tortured if caught, and they gave him false information and a non-functional parachute so when he jumped it was to his death; the purpose then was to ensure that the Germans found his body and the fake intelligence on it.
 
If you're building a giant submarine, why not dedicate the extra interior volume to doing what submarines do best, stay submerged and fire torpedoes. So, forget the giant gun or aircraft, and put in more batteries and torpedoes. And improve the living conditions so the sub can operate longer with less crew fatigue.
 
As we discussed in another thread the Allies were not particularly nice to the guys they did work with via the OSS in Europe; I think it was Carl Schwarmberger that said there was one instance where a German POW volunteered to do a mission in Germany, a guarantee to be tortured if caught, and they gave him false information and a non-functional parachute so when he jumped it was to his death; the purpose then was to ensure that the Germans found his body and the fake intelligence on it.

Brits wre accused of that one. Source is Marks 'Between Silk and Cyanide'.
 
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