German Empire in Entente Powers Victorious TL?

If the Entente were to defeat Germany before the United States came into WWI, would they leave the German Empire an... err... empire and just demand reparations &c.? I mean, I doubt that Britain, Russia, and Company really wanted to see a republic.... Also, how would this German Empire look - politically, socially, and geographically?
 
Hmmm? This isn't a DBWI. I'm asking what would happen if the Entente won an early victory and left Germany as a monarchy. :confused:
 
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Hmmm? This isn't a DBWI. I'm asking what would happen if the Entente won an early victory and left Germany as a monarchy. :confused:

Oh, okay.... :eek:

But mind you, was there any real reason to prevent Germany from turning into republic that time ? :confused: Why was it matter at all if they wanted to be a republic or whatknots ? They were still.... Germans....
 
Well, it was mainly the Americans who promoted the idea of WWI as being a "war for democracy". So, if the Entente won the war before the US entered, it's possible that they would have treated it as "just another of our silly, random wars between monarchist Powers" and gone the way of Vienna rather than Versailles....
 
There was a lot of frustration with the monarchy in Germany, and given the devestation of the economy after the first few years of war, the only question was if the republic that succeeded the monarchy would be socialist or not. Germany largely agreed to armistice because they were within months of a socialist revolution. The only way you have a surviving German Empire is with a German victory in less than two years. There wasn't going to be a German defeat in less than two years, most likely.
 
Well, couldn't the Western Front have gone fairly badly, distracting even more troops from the Eastern Front, leading to a Russian advance into Prussia? I'm not sure if that's completely plausible, but under that scenario, wouldn't reactionary Russia want to prop up the German monarchy? And wouldn't the Western Allies agree, like they (sort-a) did with the Soviets after WWII?
 
Well, couldn't the Western Front have gone fairly badly, distracting even more troops from the Eastern Front, leading to a Russian advance into Prussia? I'm not sure if that's completely plausible, but under that scenario, wouldn't reactionary Russia want to prop up the German monarchy? And wouldn't the Western Allies agree, like they (sort-a) did with the Soviets after WWII?

The most plausible early Entente victory would be a successful East Prussia offensive. The Russians only suffered the defeat they did at the Masurian Lakes through bad luck, but I don't think they could do much more than threaten Konigsburg. I'm no expert on the time, but I have a suspicion, based on economic realities of the time and postwar political movements, that even if we were to handwave a German defeat in 1915-1916 into place, we would still have a Socialist revolution in Germany in the immediate postwar years.
 
The most plausible early Entente victory would be a successful East Prussia offensive. The Russians only suffered the defeat they did at the Masurian Lakes through bad luck, but I don't think they could do much more than threaten Konigsburg. I'm no expert on the time, but I have a suspicion, based on economic realities of the time and postwar political movements, that even if we were to handwave a German defeat in 1915-1916 into place, we would still have a Socialist revolution in Germany in the immediate postwar years.

Well, we could always have the Entente Powers - Russia predominant, most likely - "occupy" Germany for "a bit". Of course, that would raise the ire of the Germans..... Dagnabbit. Was Imperial Germany's economy really that bad? :confused:
 
Well, we could always have the Entente Powers - Russia predominant, most likely - "occupy" Germany for "a bit". Of course, that would raise the ire of the Germans..... Dagnabbit. Was Imperial Germany's economy really that bad? :confused:

I'm mostly going from memory here, since most of the references I can find on Google are academic-network only, but the country had serious structural problems. The economy had experienced explosive growth from 1870 to 1914, which meant that you had a modern economy with a lot of 19th-century remnants hanging onto it. The only European country with a faster growth rate in the prewar years was Tsarist Russia, to give you perspective. It's been suggested that if not for the First World War, all of Europe might well have gone Socialist. Certainly the German economic collapse of OTL was not entirely due to Versailles and the devestation of the war. I don't know why people are so quick to assume that Austria-Hungary, the Ottomans, and the Russians were doomed and the Germans only fell due to good luck. You can only have industrialization grow for so long in a pre-modern economy before the chickens come home to roost.
 

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I'm mostly going from memory here, since most of the references I can find on Google are academic-network only, but the country had serious structural problems. The economy had experienced explosive growth from 1870 to 1914, which meant that you had a modern economy with a lot of 19th-century remnants hanging onto it. The only European country with a faster growth rate in the prewar years was Tsarist Russia, to give you perspective. It's been suggested that if not for the First World War, all of Europe might well have gone Socialist. Certainly the German economic collapse of OTL was not entirely due to Versailles and the devestation of the war. I don't know why people are so quick to assume that Austria-Hungary, the Ottomans, and the Russians were doomed and the Germans only fell due to good luck. You can only have industrialization grow for so long in a pre-modern economy before the chickens come home to roost.

In the same way you can ask yourself how the British or Swedish monarchies survived. German economy was acctually not that pre-modern at all. Certainly some 19th-century remnants were hanging on, but nothing like Russia or the Ottomane Empire. Even France had not fully modernized their economy at the time.
 
In the same way you can ask yourself how the British or Swedish monarchies survived. German economy was acctually not that pre-modern at all. Certainly some 19th-century remnants were hanging on, but nothing like Russia or the Ottomane Empire. Even France had not fully modernized their economy at the time.

But the British and Swedish monarchies couldn't be blamed for their country's economic woes the way Germany's could. Also, those countries rode out the war much better than Germany did and weren't in comparable economic straits.
A monarchy exists to moderate the effects of an elected government. The U.K. has not had a serious republican movement in centuries because the U.K.'s monarchy has not been to blame for the country's woes in centuries. The same was not true in Russia, Austria, Germany, and the Ottoman Empire. All those countries became republics.
 
Certainly the German economic collapse of OTL was not entirely due to Versailles and the devestation of the war. I don't know why people are so quick to assume that Austria-Hungary, the Ottomans, and the Russians were doomed and the Germans only fell due to good luck. You can only have industrialization grow for so long in a pre-modern economy before the chickens come home to roost.

I'm not so sure I agree. Certainly the SDP didn't implement a Socialist state when it took over... In a lot of ways the German military gave control of the state to the Socialists, so they could shoulder the blame.
 
Well, the Entente wasn't even able to enter German territory in 1918, so I don't see it doing that for long in 1914... A clear Entente victory would be something along the lines of the Germans being bogged down in Belgium and pushed back and at the same time Russia winning at *Tannenberg and reaching the Prussian Baltic. Alsace-Lorraine is recaptured too. This needs great ammounts of Prussian incompetence that I find probably beyond possibilities though...

But assuming it happens, then the German government falls and Wilhelm II abdicates, but Germany probably doesn't live something like OTL 1918. The peace treaty would be something along the lines of returning Alsace-Lorraine to France, paying something for the "embarrasement" to Belgium and letting Russia to do whatever she wants in the Balkans plus some redrawing of the Congress Polish border. Germany might remain an Empire, and even retain (most of) her overseas colonies.
 
The most plausible early Entente victory would be a successful East Prussia offensive. The Russians only suffered the defeat they did at the Masurian Lakes through bad luck, but I don't think they could do much more than threaten Konigsburg. I'm no expert on the time, but I have a suspicion, based on economic realities of the time and postwar political movements, that even if we were to handwave a German defeat in 1915-1916 into place, we would still have a Socialist revolution in Germany in the immediate postwar years.


It was more than bad luck. I'm basing this heavily on Tuchman's account in The Guns of August: first, Pavel Rennenkampf, one of two Russian commander at the front, was not grossly incompetent, but he and his counterpart, Samsonov, hated each other and basically didn't talk. Second, Samsonov essentially outran his supply lines. Third, the Russians used wireless telegraphy to send their signals, and did so in clear, as opposed to encrypted, for the most part--and if they did use encryption, it was a simple cypher that a professor of mathematics attached to the German staff had no trouble at all in solving. So: you have two commanders that don't coordinate, and the enemy has advance knowledge of exactly what you're up to. No wonder the Russians got stomped at Tannenberg in late August / early September 1914.
 
A no Tannenberg Russian steamroller early Entente victory scenerio would probably result in Germany retaining its monarchy but reducing its power. The Socialists would demand the right to pick the Chancellor and other curbs on the Kaiser's power. They would also press for the abolition of the Prussian 3 tier voting scheme.

Also ITL Britain would soon become very worried about the Tsarist Menace and would not like to see Germany "too weak" very isomorphic to the Cold War. A German constitutional monarchy that starts to resemble their own would appeal to them. France would not have Clemenceau at the helm and so would not be as fiercely antiGerman.
 
How about a no-Haber-process TL? The German army'll literally run out of shells in early 1915. Admittedly, this is more probbly going to lead to a negotiated peace, but if the allies smell blood it's possible you could see a complete allied victory in mid-1915.
 
Hmmmm..... All very interesting. ^^ Thank you all for being interested. I tend to agree with Tom_B in this, actually, though. So, maybe, we get the Russian commanders to not hate each other as a POD, then have them win at alt-Tannenberg?
 
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