German Domestic Politics in a CP Victory

Thomas1195

Banned
The conservative could become more free trade after the war or come to odds with younger right wing over it. Ukraine is Kaiserreich Great Plains and bread basket. They might be puppet but tariffs and protectionism isn’t as intelligent in a situation like this. Germany is importing a lot of agriculture products from the east especially by 60s.
There is already the National Liberals (which btw had more votes than the Conservatives in 1912 IOTL), which were jingoist enough for many of them to throw their support to, and were obviously more pro-free trade. Besides, winning the war would move the majority of soldiers towards moderation because there would be no national humiliation and revanchism (both of which naturally empower right-wing politics). Not to mention that growing demand for material peace dividends and a land of milk and honey a.k.a "a country fits for heroes" could even shift them to the left.

And no, the German-based system would be like OTL France's CFA or Continental System, basically a system that enables Germany to keep Eastern European value-added industries down and make them permanent underdeveloped primary producers. There would be no Marshall Plan equivalent, period, because liberal internationalism has been butterflied away with a CP victory.

It’s still more nations against each other instead of ideological blocs.
This is a recipe for another major war those nations are large and powerful ones.

Germany might be authoritative in colonies but they aren’t going to give local elites as much power. They have more direct say while Britain often lets local elites do as they best see fit as long as it don’t conflict with them. Germany does want to make sure there little African are hard working and good subjects to the Kaiser. Also if Germans actually settle in places those places will be more modern and nice.
This is the way the Britain governed Thirteen Colonies IOTL and thus also a recipe for uprisings and unrests, and given the German method of dealing with them IOTL, there will be more genocides. The British way of letting local elites rule actually reduced the threats of revolts.

What would a corporatist free trade system between them and puppets look like? Kaiserreich imperialist but I do see them creating EU and even NATO type organizations and institutions within their hegemony. They will desire as little trade barriers between them and their puppets as possible. Free trade with other powers could be more cherry picking and selective.

mitteleuropa could be the foundation of EU or NATO type system growing. It would be a actual German dominated EU that’s made up of puppets and allies. Europe integration and globalization can still happen. Germans could form a NATO like system or its father when Russian Civil War is going on. Either way by 60s this could be hot button issues.
Well, in short, it will be a modern version of Continental System imposed by Germany on its satelites. It would not be a democratic EU like IOTL. Another recipe for unrests, and although the German may have enough military strength to put them down, maintaining a large peace time standing military would always be a large drain to the economy in the long run (which will eventually and surely outweigh any supposed benefits gained from military research by the way). Don't expect them to govern like the British governed its White Dominions.

Besides, under this system, rising monopolies and cartels (to a much larger degree than OTL), would eventually weigh against and slow down German competitiveness and innovation.
 
Germany will have the same economic problems Great Britain and France had after winning the war. SPD and others will ask for reforms but Willhelm will likely oppose those and may even support a coup against the reichstag as he himself hinted many times
 
Austrian wishes for unity with Germany was a fringe opinion before the war, only afterwards it became popular as the new state was not seen as economically and politically viable, and they had a point because this was before unmolested access to harbors was normal in Europe. Vienna and the industry were geared towards an empire, not a small mountainous state, post WW1 there were shortages of evereything and output fell because the previous suppliers ceased supplying, and had tariff barriers on top of that.

Without A-H failing it will stay a fringe opinion, only popular among certain radicals, you can compare it to neo Confederate proponents of new secession of the Southern US states. Being a privileged class in an own empire is very advantageous for the Austrian part, and working in tandem with Germany the colonies and Eastern Europe too are open for economic opportunities by A-H business and for fortune seekers willing to move. For the minorities the devil they know is also preferable, even if there's 0 movement regarding rights and political participation. Post war the dominant political issues in A-H will be the very unequal Hungarian parliament and calls for local autonomy.

If A-H develops well enough i can even see some struggle for influence against Germany, after all A-H is not some tiny nation at the outskirts of Mittel Europa, in fact i'd guess A-H will overtake Germany in population count by 1950 or so, it's more than a generation behind Germany in urbanization, there's a lot more peasants in the hinterlands available to multiply before moving to the cities. And depending on weather or not Germany goes down the path of a renewed Kulturkampf A-H might find itself with lots of influence in Southern Germany resentful of an overbearing Prussia.
I am staying it will become more of issue at some point. Maybe not after war. Maybe not even decade after but eventually I think it will.

I don’t think Austria will handle alternative Great Depression well(still likely to happen but in a different way). They lack identity outside of the vague concept of an empire. I don’t think that is good ground work for empire that controls people with clear ethnic and language history.

That is a difference between European subjects and Africans. In Africa you do have one rarely talked about advantage over Europe. That is the natives are so ethnically diverse everywhere and many don’t have any history of or not as many large empires and nation states. Some don’t even have there language written down yet. That does make it easier to eliminate and destroy elements of their culture and language. They can’t “rediscover” anything if Germans didn’t even bother to record it or intentionally tried to discourage it. Africans in Cameroon, Tanzania, or Namibia by 60s natives languages could be heading towards extinction and be gone even after a possible independence is achieved. It is easier to play divide and conquer while you assimilate from the top down.

I don’t think the Kaiserreich will be as openly racist as time progresses even if they are still imperialist. Black Germans could be much more of a thing and demographic. Germany propaganda might like talking about its “enlightenment” era and how Germans are here to “uplift” Africans into proper German citizens. This is easier for them to do then bigger overseas empires. Germany didn’t bite off more then it could chew for once when talking about their few colonies. Imperialism more like Romans did in Celtic lands or even Russian Empire is how imperialism has been done for centuries. Racial science shit is more modern but might shift more back to culture and nationality over race. That’s what can make Africa complex.

Europe this is much harder. People have long, well recorded, and written histories. Wiping out that without demographic dominance is much harder. The Africans might be treated like shit but this is often the first unifying element they have ever had in there history. Many especially younger people don’t know their history before German rule in Africa going into 60s. Many only know of German. Europe isn’t like this.

Let’s start in 60s or 30s Austria. By this time the development gaps between German/Austrian half of empire and Hungarians have only become bigger. German half is on para with Germany and other half is not. This leads to ethnic issues and conflicts. You have Germans from both Germany and Austria living in both countries rather mutually and do business often. Many German citizens are also Austrian citizens. They even marry and live together often. You can take a train from Berlin to Prague rather easily. Do you not see where stuff like this could lead especially when demand for reform is high. This is repeat of 1849 revolutions mixed together with 60s counter culture and politics.

Hungarians might be one that destroys empire. What if they tell Germans to screw off when they don’t want to give Romanians more rights. Image how pissed off Germany and Germans going to get with Hungarians when they try to subtly favor Hungarians in their half of empire over Germans. If Hungarians are trying to pressure Germans in assimilating or making daily life to Hungarian dominated by favoring their language much more so then German then not just local Germans will be bad but both Austrian and Kaiserreich ones too. They could actually be ones being reasonable and Hungarians are just stubborn assholes about things. This is what often happened in otl.

Hungarians might actually help Germany look better to Romanians, Jews, and some Slavs when they come to their defense against Hungarians. If Hungarians cause a civil war Germany going to come in and simple curb stomp them and empire dies. Austrians and Germans worked mutually together to put down Hungarian Revolution or civil war. Austrians would likely say screw it at that point and join Germany while making rest puppets. The Austrians aren’t always issue. To extent yes but a lot of stupidity will be on Hungarians too
 
I don't see a reason why the militry clique lead by Ludendorf and von Hindenburg would willingly give up their near dictatorial power they got in the war, so I think one of the first big confrontations within Germany would be between the civilian Reichstag, and the military (probably backed by many Conservatives).
As pointed out above, virtually nobody in either military, political or bureaucratic circles liked or would have supported Ludendorff post-war. He was seen as a quite able man but rather...odd... and politically extreme. Hindenburg didn't like him very much either but recognised his utility.

The Kaiserreich was a society which produced both people like Magnus Hirschfeld (the first LGBTQ-scientist) and Erich Ludendorff (the antisemitic general).
Both would live in our victorious Kaiserreich.
And Austria-Hungary was a society that produced Freud, Adler and Conrad von Hotzendorff, the USA produced Alfred Kinsey and George Smith Patton; The United Kingdom, Peter Wildeblood and the homophobic General Walter Walker, for that matter Ireland provided both William Joyce and Brendan Bracken. Nations are pluralistic to some degree and will bring forth divergent views.
 
There is already the National Liberals (which btw had more votes than the Conservatives in 1912 IOTL), which were jingoist enough for many of them to throw their support to, and were obviously more pro-free trade. Besides, winning the war would move the majority of soldiers towards moderation because there would be no national humiliation and revanchism (both of which naturally empower right-wing politics). Not to mention that growing demand for material peace dividends and a land of milk and honey a.k.a "a country fits for heroes" could even shift them to the left.

And no, the German-based system would be like OTL France's CFA or Continental System, basically a system that enables Germany to keep Eastern European value-added industries down and make them permanent underdeveloped primary producers. There would be no Marshall Plan equivalent, period, because liberal internationalism has been butterflied away with a CP victory.


This is a recipe for another major war those nations are large and powerful ones.


This is the way the Britain governed Thirteen Colonies IOTL and thus also a recipe for uprisings and unrests, and given the German method of dealing with them IOTL, there will be more genocides. The British way of letting local elites rule actually reduced the threats of revolts.


Well, in short, it will be a modern version of Continental System imposed by Germany on its satelites. It would not be a democratic EU like IOTL. Another recipe for unrests, and although the German may have enough military strength to put them down, maintaining a large peace time standing military would always be a large drain to the economy in the long run (which will eventually and surely outweigh any supposed benefits gained from military research by the way). Don't expect them to govern like the British governed its White Dominions.

Besides, under this system, rising monopolies and cartels (to a much larger degree than OTL), would eventually weigh against and slow down German competitiveness and innovation.
Germany could still be introduced to American culture and capitalism through German American influence especially by media. This could actually create a divide in left especially among youth. You have more classical liberal or American style liberals starting growing in popularity while other side is more social democracy. They both agreed on social and political reform but not economically as much.

Also what about Germans in these places? No one is bringing that up?

That is main reason Eastern Europe and puppets won’t be complete banana republics or sweatshops.

If Germans make up large minorities you get more of a regime like South Africa but without direct or much less discriminative laws. More de facto discriminative but not actually. Assimilate people are welcomed as Germans with exception of most fringe racist. You could have nice little urban German dominated pockets out east that look like any other German city at home. Big nice resorts on the Black Sea and Crimea. Germans might own really nice beach houses there. Riga would likely have a big and thriving German community.

Unlike many puppets or colonies in France and Britain or US sphere allies this superpower citizens are actually working and living there on a much more regular basis.

Germans will actually see what is going on out east much more then Americans do in Mexico or Britain in Africa. Even Britain developed settler colonies and white dominions more then other colonies that were just to be exploited.

Germany isn’t going to treat Germans out east like shit. They will go through effort for them. They are their regional and local support base too. The German demographics out east could heavily favor urban more then anything. A few large or medium cities out there could have slight German majorities.

Continual system is good comparison I think but I would say it will have more EU like elements because don’t forget they have actual mutual allies too.

International cooperation isn’t just ww1 thing. It actually has its roots in napoleonic wars. Europe did kind of went through a lot of same shit literally 100 years before. Sadly the French didn’t learn or remember shit from it. The coalition against France is example of this. The concert of Europe is similar to this. It is more imperialist and conservative working together on international politics instead of more liberal otl EU.

This century is more similar to that. The balance of power itself was an example of a proto international system. Germany could have a mutual relationship with Finland, Austria, Italy(neutral or pro German during war), and even few puppets. They don’t always have to be complete dicks or imperialist. Imperialist can actually work together too. The Berlin conference and Bismarck shows that.

The German right will change those. The younger and merging right wing who on more moderate end of things could be open to working with other groups against the left. This includes Catholic which could have big butterfly effects especially regarding south Germans. Catholics might still come to odd with Prussian junker but less so his son or younger officer who just cares for loyalty(still doesn’t like church or idea of pope but if they “stay in their lane” they will work with them especially against the left). Catholics might also side with conservatives more in the face of social changes they don’t like. This happened in a lot places in otl. Catholics will be more traditional in outlook often times. They could become more conservative. Also monarchs and religion becoming more symbolic and mixed with nationalism does make Catholic and Protestant divide still slowly fade.

I think German academics and youth sees a big drop in traditional religions. I see nationalistic or symbolic Christian sects becoming more and more norm. Non-religious are second biggest growing one. Also neo pagans are much more widespread then otl.

Germans especially among the right and youth might develop a heavy fetish for romantics, classics, Vikings, and other Germanic folklore which media will often feed into. Viking genre in media might be much more wide spread. Some on the left in 60s might even deem these movies as nationalistic propaganda(deserved or undeserved depending on movie in question). Maybe some even compare them to birth of a nation(they will not be that racist but still clearly bias and romanticized media).

Your more conservative or “wholesome” media are Knights, damsels, castles, and that type of stuff. Your more youth or right wing counter culture is gritty and rather intense media about war and fighting. Vikings raids and ancient Germanic people. Or movies that depict Germans in eastern front(a German American Sniper movie?).

Lastly EU economics and structure is more for benefit of German citizens in this system not the locals who still resist or don’t assimilate. Germans east will want to be able to travel within these puppets like it is the EU. If a German wants a beach house in Ukraine he can just go buy one and move out of somewhere like Hanover for a nice big house out east if he or she has money too
 
Regarding international cooperation and organization, I think it is important to consider Prussia did show ability to work with other powers during time of Napoleon. This time period had even more outdated systems and imperialistic attitudes but the threat of revolutionary governments and radicalization of people desiring reform were high and growing.

USSR=Revolutionary French Socialist/Marxist= liberals Kaiserreich/imperials=ancien regimes students=students(that was a thing in century before too. Reform and radicals both often come from this group), Stalin/Trotsky=Napoleon(if they lose and one takes power. Trotsky would probably be more Napoleon like figure in a situation like this).

This actually might be part of Kaiserreich propaganda as a way to de legitimize more Marxist left to German youth and reformers. You do end up with a truly odd mix of the old and new Europe.

Berlin conference and concert of Europe shows they can work together somewhat especially when threaten by revolutionary, reform, and radical elements. Bismarck actually predicted some of dumb shit Wilhelm would do and what it could lead to. A aging Wilhelm might look back at what Bismarck warn him of and have a change in outlook after the war. Maybe he “soften” as a old man and becomes like more like a Victoria type monarch after the war which seems fitting he takes more after her when he ages. They are blood after all.

World Wars greatly changed European culture but ww2 way more then one. A Kaiserreich victory could skip right over the interwar years and ww2 and go straight into global politics we see develop in Cold War and after. Germany isn’t trying to expand after ww1. They are trying to organize what they got and contain possible threats like USSR after ww2. They even might have same enemy in form of USSR but if reds lose then you get a more post USSR international scene.

Germany only threat could be Britain if USSR fails to win. Germany and non communist Russia could have a relationship comparable to otl China and US right now. Russia still somewhat of a boogeyman to some but is mostly a paper tiger filled with backwards and often ignored rural populations(much higher birth rates with no reds. Might have more Russian majority areas but more are unskilled and poorly educated). The economy relies on a mix of raw resources and sweatshop cheap labor industries but lack more high end ones. Many companies are German or foreign owned and often work with the government there to an extent. The only nice areas are urban centers in heart of major Russian cities(nobles, middle class, foreigners, and industrialist). Russia a even worse version of Putin Russia if whites or my black army idea wins that war. Russia who isn’t communist is going to fill force to trade with Germany.

Germany and Russia are big trade partners now in otl. That can still happen if reds lose more out of economic necessity. A German friendly US especially given demographic of Germans and increased economic ties likely favors German trade over Russia if cp win. Germany and pro German interest could nudge US to not trade as much with a hostile Russia. Britain and France become their only other option but Britain could see reapproachment with Kaiserreich at some and same thing they did with US could work with Russia.

Germany might actually support free trade because not they have a big enough bloc to actually be on more equal footing internationally. If you piss off Germany that is you possibly missing out on trade with their hegemony.

If Britain and Germany patch things up even if it is a decade or two later they have no external threats anymore. US could very well be like a giant Switzerland mixed with a largest industrial base in world still. They are solely focused on business. The only foreign stuff they are doing is in Western Hemisphere and Far East to lesser degree. US might actually steal German businesses or people who prefer more raw capitalism over increasingly corporate, welfare state, and bureaucratic Germany but no military threat at all.

US will be a absolutely economic giant especially if they stayed neutral. It’s government would be solely focused on economics still and not the military. But downside a social safety net is even more non existent. That cultural conflict or “war” between Europe and US could replace one they had with USSR but less extreme but still pretty prevalent.

That could lead to US that is more socially liberal but economically light interventionist at most laissez-faire at extreme. But infrastructure and public transportation is much better without military industrial complex taking up money. Raw Capitalism vs corporatist society could be big difference between the two.

By 60s they could be where US is at in 90s on international stage. They just lack any direct military threats. Everything else is more proxy or domestic type conflicts now. Britain and Germany could very well be helping each other maintain each other imperial status quo with growing unrest and both work together to police the old world(US will still bitch and threaten them if they do that shit in Western Hemisphere which is kind of funny given otl. Imagine Americans complaining about “European influence or imperialism” in Latin America. They will sound like Russian federation of otl). US might honestly be looked at more like Russian federation as otl especially in Kaiserreich.

No USSR means no place to get support and weapons from for decolonization. Americans would be your best bet but they rather sell to Brits and Germans who actually have more money so that’s probably unlikely unless they piss off US by doing something really really stupid. Even if they do win they have less ability to help these groups then otl. Everything for them is still focused on Europe.

WMD could still develop even before the nukes. Even some vague ideas of this was talked about by some Europeans who feared new technology would lead exactly to what happened in otl. Great War did make them see that more if still not fully. If nuke is invented at somewhat point I think major world war or war between superpowers become a big no still. Germany in this pod has people and resources to create nuke. I don’t see why they would not especially given how their military thinks.

By 60s Germany might very well have a nuclear bomb. US is second and Britain third. France or Italy next(Italians if close allies might get a few or help with that by Germans depending on how things develop).

What if France sees a rise in right wing after war? They did lose or a nationalistic left? They keep having their o so famous past time of flipping between different governments again. French pride is going to be damaged big time. Imagine how pissed France will be and it’s people. Germany probably lets a friendly Italy get few jabs at them just for laugh and spite. Italy will at least get back all its stolen art work in a treaty most likely. That might not seem too bad but many nationalist will take that as biggest disrespect possible. Having Italians take land or anything from France would be more of a national insult to them then Germany doing the same. The worse part for many French people will be they feel like they can’t do or stay anything to this new German superpower. They feel emasculated.

How will France react if Germany is first to test rockets, jets, and other more modern technology. It would only take under hour to possibly bomb Paris and Moscow mutually. Russia military no matter who wins is probably less technological then Germany and French are just too outclass. French terrorism might be much higher then otl among actual native French people.

One thing I find stupid in Kaiserreich Heart of Iron mod is French Commune which makes no god damn sense especially when they stop revolution in Russia. Stopping uprising in France would be much easier.

Germans likely keep troops in France especially Paris for few years after war if not more. They did that somewhat in Franco-Prussian war. If commune try to take over Paris or France they would be immediately stop by German units there. The French government falling apart like that would actually benefit Germany because they do have more ability over French now. If France can’t get its shit together Britain is going to say less and less about how Germans decide to handle it. They won’t let Germany take more land probably but putting more pro-German and German government structure to them might be allowed by Britain.

If civil war or revolution breaks out in France especially if more radical government takes hold by time German troops are out of France your looking at mid 20s and later. Germany can quickly steamroll to Paris against a divided or unstable France. Allies and possibly in larger Greater Netherlands would make that easy. The Germans might honestly even straight up tell France if you try to make nuke we will invade and use our if threaten. UK might even join in on Germany side on that. UK just wants to keep this advantage to as little people as possible. Even US and USSR would sometimes work together to prevent other countries from developing nukes.

French colonial empire is more preserved in long run because Germany and UK can’t physically able to take all their colonies because one they have too much within their own empire to manage and two they know domino effect of having any leave Europe rule.

Imagine that a Empire that itself is bossed around by fellow imperialist who are stronger. Some French probably hate world in general. UK and Germany telling them they can’t have nukes under threat of war in 60s would be probably one of the worse moments in French history to many nationalist. They just got treated like the people they been colonizing. But they will be force to concede.

Kaiserreich going to love showing off their latest military toys to the world. Germany might not declare war but countries in general in a world like this will be doing a lot more dick swinging with its military just to show world if you mess with Germany our their missles, war machines, and men will be attacking your capital soon after you declare war. This could be in 40s or late 30s before they even invent nuke. Why do you think Russia is against idea of US missiles in former USSR or border countries. It’s basically a pistol right to there head if they ever try anything. It’s a show of force and warning.

If ww2 happens around where it did in otl you could get a absolute slaughter in direct combat on both French and Russian front. Even USSR will be weaker in straight fight by this 1940s. That is even more true with France. Germany is only slowly getting stronger and much more so then otl. By 40s or late 30s that war weariness is gone or not as bad anymore. You have a new generation of new men, weapons, tactics, and so on. You probably be preparing for this alternative up coming conflict. Kaiserreich might take initiative to still invade Russia and France first(USSR and radical but elective nationalistic socialist type group. French nationalist socialist much more true to socialist part then Nazis. The socialism elements being a power move to rally more African soldiers to fight in next war).

France could fall quicker then otl and Soviets who are attacked in summer might actually not have numbers if Germany has developed local support and troops enough. A lot of Russian exiles and populations in puppets have been waiting for years to fight reds again and “reclaim” their motherland.

UK is a no threat if it falls to revolution or unrest. You know why? Because their empire would immediately break into multiple pieces of UK itself fell from within which I don’t think is likely but if they did that does mean Germany can do whatever the hell it like now in a lot things.

I also don’t think British public is inclined to radicalization as much even in defeat if they at least got “peace with honor” and something out of it to at least say they won somewhat. I think the “peace with honor” will see Brits and its public see Europe as a lost cause. The commonwealth or union between white dominions might be stronger concept and movements then otl. A commonwealth that shifts more towards a moderate capitalist stance but with more British politics and structure?

WW2 could be more Franco-Prussian like and anti-climatic. Germany might have been planning this and modernizing for years by now. New Guard and young officers taking place of ww1 ones. Soviet tactics and equipment might not help them at all here. If they have jets a few years earlier then otl they will have air superiority. They could have modern paratroopers and marine forces. Even better tanks and war vehicles. They could even have navy superiority if Britain isn’t involved.

The Germans finally have Quality and resources together. This is actually very bad in many ways. If they steamroll these nations in this Second World War Germany especially Kaiserreich would be more cocky and nationalistic even among normal people. I don’t think everyone back then and even now too understand the scope of these weapons that are being invented around this time. Germany could have Plan this for years thinking “we don’t want another war like that but we need to be more prepared and as ready as possible”. This becomes more true if tensions keep rising In interwar years like otl.

Germany unlike the allies will prepare for possible second especially with not all the enemies in first war being fully dealt with or defeated(Brits). The top military plan all this time for a massive and “apocalyptic” level war but actually over prepared by a lot. They might actually win before the year is even over and even military could be shocked by the success.

Second World War could still be a “holy shit type movement” for Europe and what “cures” Kaiserreich of its ww1 or war weariness fully. They just defeated Russia and France in less then a year. They just proved they “corrected” the mistakes of the first welt kreig but open Pandora’s box.

The war could have started over a “border incident” out east. It could be both sides just getting more chipping with each before one uses some excuse to invade. You could have German military try and bait possible incident to start war or issue between exile Russians or reds at border. Germany moves troops to border to “secure” it. Reds are put on alert and ready themselves but their leaders know War isn’t good idea. Only French leaders want a second war not Soviets. Soviets know there best bet is to try to poison Kaiserreich from within with unrest instead of a direct war they will lose but France makes issue worse by being very aggressive diplomatically out west. French leaders think they can actually win and think they can repeat what they did 100 years before(some are somewhat disillusion radicals).
 
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