German denial of the Zimmerman Telegram

So as we all know, after the Zimmerman telegram was discovered, the Germans(for whatever reason) acknowledged the authenticity of the letter. Now what might have happened if the Germans denied its authenticity, and(to add insult to injury) attempted to pass it off as a propaganda ploy on the part of the British?
 
While IMHO the sinking of the Lusitania made the US sympathetic to the Allies (or at least anti-German), the Zimmerman telegram is what definitely made them want to fight. If the Zimmerman telegram is denied by Germany, it would most likely cool those pro-Allies feelings and push the American public back towards neutrality, but I don't think it would swing them fully over to the German side. Basically it would feel that the Allies (mainly Britain) couldn't win on their own and were trying to drag the US into a fight that wasn't any of their business.
 
While IMHO the sinking of the Lusitania made the US sympathetic to the Allies (or at least anti-German), the Zimmerman telegram is what definitely made them want to fight. If the Zimmerman telegram is denied by Germany, it would most likely cool those pro-Allies feelings and push the American public back towards neutrality, but I don't think it would swing them fully over to the German side. Basically it would feel that the Allies (mainly Britain) couldn't win on their own and were trying to drag the US into a fight that wasn't any of their business.

Maybe, but the sinking w/o warning of three American merchant ships all on the same day in March 1917 was probably at least as important as the ZT.

If those are left alone, or destroyed by "cruiser rules", then there's just a chance.
 
While IMHO the sinking of the Lusitania made the US sympathetic to the Allies (or at least anti-German), the Zimmerman telegram is what definitely made them want to fight. If the Zimmerman telegram is denied by Germany, it would most likely cool those pro-Allies feelings and push the American public back towards neutrality, but I don't think it would swing them fully over to the German side. Basically it would feel that the Allies (mainly Britain) couldn't win on their own and were trying to drag the US into a fight that wasn't any of their business.
Due Germany's inept handling of propaganda during WW1 a denial is very likely to be dis-believed or even have the opposite affect. One of the basic rules of propaganda is do not defend it only draws fresh attention to the subject. Instead attack with something else. Germany spent most of the war defending. All information is propaganda.
 
Due Germany's inept handling of propaganda during WW1 a denial is very likely to be dis-believed or even have the opposite affect. One of the basic rules of propaganda is do not defend it only draws fresh attention to the subject. Instead attack with something else. Germany spent most of the war defending. All information is propaganda.
Dude, Zimmeram was asked by a reporter about the telegram and confirmed its authenticity instead of saying it's a British fabrication. This is not about a word salad of "defending, attacking, information is propaganda blablabla". If he, and the German gov't, declines to answer the question, that question will be asked by the Americans again and again until they've concluded that the refusal to answer is basically an admission anyway.
 
Aye the Germans were incredibly dismissive of the US military because the US army at the time was absolutely tiny, its airforce largely non-existant and the Navy was the only thing of note and it was a top heavy mess with many battleships, a large number of obsolete armoured cruisers, no light cruisers worth the name and a rather small number of DD's that could cross the Atlantic. Them brazening it out was basically a "Yeah and? The hell are you going to do about it?"
 
Once the Germans had decided on unrestricted submarine warfare (including killing Americans on American ships [1]) it was inevitable that the US would enter the war. (At least under President Wilson or for that matter President Hughes--if there were a President Bryan or a President La Follette, it might be different.) The Zimmerman Telegram may have made the vote for war in Congress even more overwhelming than it otherwise would have been, but that is all.

In fact, the whole reason for the Telegram is that the Germans realized that their decision for unlimited submarine warfare was almost certain to lead to war with the US, and wanted the support of Mexico in the event that occurred.

[1] Rather oddly, many people here don't seem to get the significance of this. Prior to 1917, there had only been one incident of Germans killing Americans on an American ship--the Gulflight incident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulflight And there "As an American ship, the submarine would not have attacked had he seen her nationality, but apart from an ordinary flag Gulflight was not carrying any additional markings painted on the hull to make clear her nationality, which other ships were then doing." A lot of Americans thought that Americans had no business traveling on belligerent ships but drew the line where attacks on American ships were concerned. Now in 1917 for the first time Germany had made sinking such ships a policy.
 
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Due Germany's inept handling of propaganda during WW1 a denial is very likely to be dis-believed or even have the opposite affect. One of the basic rules of propaganda is do not defend it only draws fresh attention to the subject. Instead attack with something else. Germany spent most of the war defending. All information is propaganda.
Except Americans already thot it was British propaganda, public opinion felt that it was to ridiculous to be from the German foren servaus, it wasn't untill Zimmerman confermend it ( to git Mexico to join this insane plan of his) that it become such a huge deal whith the usa.
Once the Germans had decided on unrestricted submarine warfare (including killing Americans on American ships [1]) it was inevitable that the US would enter the war. (At least under President Wilson or for that matter President Hughes--if there were a President Bryan or a President La Follette, it might be different.) The Zimmerman Telegram may have made the vote for war in Congress even more overwhelming than it otherwise would have been, but that is all.

In fact, the whole reason for the Telegram is that the Germans realized that their decision for unlimited submarine warfare was almost certain to lead to war with the US, and wanted the support of Mexico in the event that occurred.

[1] Rather oddly, many people here don't seem to get the significance of this. Prior to 1917, there had only been one incident of Germans killing Americans on an American ship--the Gulflight incident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulflight And there "As an American ship, the submarine would not have attacked had he seen her nationality, but apart from an ordinary flag Gulflight was not carrying any additional markings painted on the hull to make clear her nationality, which other ships were then doing." A lot of Americans thought that Americans had no business traveling on belligerent ships but drew the line where attacks on American ships were concerned. Now in 1917 fort he first time Germany had made sinking such ships a policy.
Well where gust going to disagree on this, the ships may have eventually push the us into the war but there still a huge part that felt that anybody that whent to Europe when doing so at there own risk, the telegram was important it that it confinsed many that the war was coming to the USA whether or not they wanted it, that wate made this so important, if Americans delay intrens into the war by gust 3 months Briton would be bankrupt and the uboat blockade woulnt be necessary any more, Zimmerman telegram was extremely important becuse of what it represented to the American people, more so then the sunk ships.
 
Well where gust going to disagree on this, the ships may have eventually push the us into the war but there still a huge part that felt that anybody that whent to Europe when doing so at there own risk, the telegram was important it that it confinsed many that the war was coming to the USA whether or not they wanted it, that wate made this so important, if Americans delay intrens into the war by gust 3 months Briton would be bankrupt and the uboat blockade woulnt be necessary any more, Zimmerman telegram was extremely important becuse of what it represented to the American people, more so then the sunk ships.

There wouldn't have been a delay of three months. "Over the weekend of March 16–18, 1917, three US ships were sunk without warning: the Vigilancia, the City of Memphis, and the Illinois. Six Americans aboard the Vigilancia drowned, along with nine seamen of other nationalities. The editorial reaction in the press, which mostly urged that these three sinkings constituted overt acts of war, is discussed. [1] Wilson's cabinet met and recommended that the United States declare war on Germany. Wilson did not give his decision, but asked that Congress convene early on April 2, 1917." https://florida.universitypressscho...3037622.001.0001/upso-9780813037622-chapter-9 These sinkings would by themselves have been enough to get Wilson to ask Congress for war. And he would have gotten it even without the Zimmerman Telegram. Maybe not by 82-6 in the Senate and 373-50 in the House, but a less overwhelming majority wouldn't have made any real difference.

[1] See https://www.coloradohistoricnewspap...------en-20--1--img-txIN|txCO|txTA--------0-- for a typical headline:
UNARMED AMERICAN STEAMERS SUNK BY GERMAN SUBMARINES

State of War Exists Between United States and Germany as Result of Torpedoing of Three Merchant Ships, Unloaded and Homeward Bound—Reported Loss of Life—Officials Declare That Assault on American Shipping Is Act of War, and Defines Germany’s Intentions—President Has Power TO TAKE MEASURES PENDING MEETING OF CONGRESS

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There wouldn't have been a delay of three months. "Over the weekend of March 16–18, 1917, three US ships were sunk without warning: the Vigilancia, the City of Memphis, and the Illinois. Six Americans aboard the Vigilancia drowned, along with nine seamen of other nationalities. The editorial reaction in the press, which mostly urged that these three sinkings constituted overt acts of war, is discussed. [1] Wilson's cabinet met and recommended that the United States declare war on Germany. Wilson did not give his decision, but asked that Congress convene early on April 2, 1917." https://florida.universitypressscho...3037622.001.0001/upso-9780813037622-chapter-9 These sinkings would by themselves have been enough to get Wilson to ask Congress for war. And he would have gotten it even without the Zimmerman Telegram. Maybe not by 82-6 in the Senate and 373-50 in the House, but a less overwhelming majority wouldn't have made any real difference.

[1] See https://www.coloradohistoricnewspap...------en-20--1--img-txIN|txCO|txTA--------0-- for a typical headline:


Though the headline is wrong in one particular, stating that three American ships were torpedoed.

In fact, only the Vigilancia was torpedoed, the others being sunk by gunfire or demolition charges (ie by cruiser rules) and without loss of life. Only on the Vigilancia did any Americans die. But of course, given that the reports reached the papers simultaneously, press and public conflated the three sinkings into a single atrocity. W/o the Vigilancia, the other two might have made far less impact, It is worth noting that, since Feb 1, three American ships, the Housatonic, Lyman M Law and Algonquin, had been sunk w/o loss of life, and Wilson had not acted.

Of the 25 sinkings between then and July 4 only seven involved loss of life. So (if this was the crucial factor in Wilson's mind) the Germans might have postponed war for three months by sparing just eight ships (even assuming that none of these could have been sunk by cruiser rules) and employing the unused torpedoes to sink an equivalent number of other ships. Butterflies permitting, the first American deaths would have been on July 10, when the steamer Kansan was torpedoed with four deaths. [1]

Of course,, whether a DoW in July would necessarily have come too late to save Britain from economic collapse is a separate question.


[1] All details are from U.S. Merchant Ships, Sailing Vessels, and Fishing Craft Lost from all Causes during World War I at http://www.usmm.org/ww1merchant.html
 
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What incensed the US leadership the most was that they had given Germany access to US undersea Cables to communicate with Latin American consulates and the Germans had misused it to forment war in America. Denial will only pour fuel on that.
 
What incensed the US leadership the most was that they had given Germany access to US undersea Cables to communicate with Latin American consulates and the Germans had misused it to forment war in America. Denial will only pour fuel on that.
Yes, and the British could prove it. They had the ciphertext which had been sent on the US cable (by a US operator), and could demonstrate the deciphering. I think they could do so without revealing that they were monitoring traffic on the US cable where it passed through the relay station at Land's End. (Many of the trans-Atlantic cables came onshore there, so the signal could be boosted for the oceanic crossing.) The British had spread a cover story about stealing the text in Mexico.

While the injury was trivial, the insult was profound.
 
Except Americans already thot it was British propaganda, public opinion felt that it was to ridiculous to be from the German foren servaus, it wasn't untill Zimmerman confermend it ( to git Mexico to join this insane plan of his) that it become such a huge deal whith the usa.
It was sent BY the American embassy in Berlin, and had been the only coded message the Germans wanted sent during the war. That’s already kinda suspicious. When the British declare its true nature the Americans can CHECK the message since they’re the ones who sent it. Sure they’ll have to decide it first, but helpfully the British have already broken the code, and don’t you know they’ll be happy to provide the cipher and prove it.

The biggest knock on effect will be the Germans realizing their codes are broken which will be of rather limited use honestly.
 
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