German culture after a 1917 negotiated peace

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date

BlondieBC

Banned
Also which way is Germany going to lean here? I think the right isn't as empowered as OTL, as the Vaterland Partei wasn't formed until late 1917 and was dependent on Ludendorff's rise to power. Also the lack of the left rising up in 1918-19 will prevent its collapse as a political force in the immediate aftermath of the war, as per OTL. They won't get as radicalized and if anything the 'mainstream left' will have more of an attachment to the establishment than the right wing.

Well, I will be an modern election predictor. Probably about as accurate as the average talking head on Fox News, but here is my guess. ;)

I would predict the SPD has around 40% of seats ITTL election of 1918. The SPD has to find a partner. It is pretty clear the Centre party will be above 15% of the votes. There will be various conservatives that will be enough to form a government. So we get to the sausage making of politics. The SPD can control the lower house without the conservative elements of society, but deal with the Kaiser, Prussian legislature, and other conservative elements blocking reforms. Or cut a deal with the conservatives, which I think in practice will mean the Kaiser's chancellor. I tend to think the Kaiser will cut a deal, and a lot of reforms get passed in this parliament. Now after that, it depends on if the reforms work. If things are great, you could get a strong socialist parliament that stays in power for decades. Or if things go badly (bad economy near election time, bleeding losses in occupation duty, etc), the conservatives will get a chance in the next election to form a government based on socialists, messed it up. If I had to bet, i would go with Socialist are still in power when next war starts, with no more than 1 election cycle out of power.

Other choice is not good for Kaiser and political allies. He blocks popular reforms. SPD blames failures on conservatives. Voters become more socialist over time. SPD never loses control of lower house for generation.

The Kaiser has a problem. He won the war, but not quickly, so will be blamed by portion of society. Him or people close to him like professional Prussian officer corp. Army is not reliable to do reforms. He has no option to use army to short circuit political process.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_1912
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_1919
 

Deleted member 1487

Could we see a 'controlled demolition' idea at some point with regards to A-H? Germany grabs the choice bits for herself (mainly German speaking areas or areas to be Germanized like Bohemia), while setting up Hungary as a separate kingdom and perhaps establishing some sort of Southern Slav state based around Croatia. Perhaps Hungary is forced to ceded some territory to Romania to keep them friendly? I think in this scenario Bukowina would end up back with Romania rather than ending us with Poland as part of Galicia. Someone earlier mentioned West Galicia being part of Poland, but why not the whole of Habsburg Galicia? Ukraine is part of Russia here, so it makes no sense to give East Galicia to them, nor does it make any sense to keep East Galicia once the West half is gone; also it is pretty leveled after the war, so its offloading an expense on to the Poles, while removing the rebellious Ruthenians from the Empire and making them a problem of the Poles. Plus it makes the Poles happy, as they wanted all of Galicia, not just the Polish majority areas (Lemberg too was just a Polish dot in a sea of Ukrainian farmers). As far as Galicia goes, I think that would be worked out prior to German intervention in the Habsburg Empire, but it would trigger a lot of problems, as once the Kaiser starts to give up parts of his multi-ethnic empire the rest of the ethnic groups that want autonomy or to be part of neighboring countries are going to want the same treatment as a reward for their efforts in the war. So this act of ceding Galicia to Poland could touch off the dissolution of the Empire....


I don't think the Entente would be very happy about it, but depending on when it happens they probably won't have the power to prevent it. Grossdeutschland is a scary beast in Central Europe that is probably stronger than Kleindeutschland and A-H together, as Germany then gets to lord over a slew of smaller allies like Greater Hungary, Greater Poland (sans German held Polish areas), maybe a Southern Slav state comprising Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia/rump Serbia, Lithuania, and some form of Baltic Duchy like Courland.

This version of Grossdeutschland would likely hold Luxembourg (the nation and Belgian Luxembourg), parts of the 1914 French border area, Austria, Sudetenland, Bohemia, and Moravia. The addition of 6 million or so Czechs is going to be a problem, not to mention the divide of having +10 million Catholic Germans from the Habsburg Empire as citizens and voters in parliamentary elections (including a large number of Socialists). Economically and demographically it would be a giant in Europe that would likely suck in surrounding non-allied economies based on its gravity alone. I'm thinking it would morph the idea of Mitteleuropa into a 'large area economy' similar to the Zollverein or even the modern EU. This would be largely unacceptable to the West, but short of another war, I'm not sure what they could do about it.

This block would be largely economically synergistic, as the non-German areas are largely under/unindustrialized and are agricultural, which means Germany ends up as the supplier of industrial goods in exchange for raw materials and food, while taking excess labor from their subject countries as guest workers. Still, Germany would need resources from outside her economic block, so Russia would have to be brought once again into trade, not to mention Romania with its oil, and of course the Ottomans once they can rebuild (if they even want to be allied to Germany anymore after the horribly destructive war that was just fought). I'm curious if Germany would try and project its economic influence into Asia more as a corporate power, as Persia was IOTL receptive to German businesses helping them develop their economy and infrastructure after WW1.

Any chance the Dutch would find themselves sucked into the orbit of Germany? They were pretty friendly with the Germans prior to WW2 (and afterwards too) and would be a very useful trade partner thanks to their colonial empire. The Swedes of course would be locked into exporting to Germany as per OTL. Poland would get a nice boost when it discovers the very rich coal deposits northeast of Lemberg. Belgium will probably find the German market far too important to avoid trading with, especially as it is sitting on a large part of what would have been the BeNeLux economic area, so would need German coal and iron in exchange for Belgian colonial resources.

Russia would need a place to sell their raw materials to rebuild the country, which leaves Germany as the major buyer postwar. France is going to drop off as a financial supporter for a while thanks to its war debts, destruction of its territory, lack of reparations from Germany, demographic losses, and likely political instability in the wake of the war.

I realize this is rambly, but what about Spain? Would they have their political problems in this scenario and end up at Civil War roughly as per OTL?

Greece, France, and Britain not getting involved in the Middle East postwar would probably be helpful for them economically and politically, despite then lacking the oil revenues from the 1920s. Germany instead probably finds its investment monies tapped by the Ottoman Empire from the late 1910's on, both to rebuild the area (which is probably pretty unstable after the British cultivated the Arab Revolt), finish the Berlin-Baghdad railroad and other infrastructure, and develop oil resources. I wonder if the Arabian mega-fields would be discovered on time?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Regarding the culture, well i feel that in general the mood will be a clear break up with the past, basically the rampant militarism and natiolism had received a very hard hit as many of the value of the past.

Isn't the clear break from a cultural perspective the USA culture. Has many Germanic elements, and only Great Power to avoid the horrors of the war. Rich, peaceful. A model to be copied? If you have the right rose colored glasses, you can ignore things like segregation, no social safety network, horribly inefficient militia system that is only workable because we have two oceans protecting us, etc.

In this scenario would there still be a rise in antisemitism? I'm thinking not since there would be no "stabbed in the back" myth.

Yes, in Russia and maybe Poland. IOTL, Ludendorff praised Jews in his 1919 book. It is only the post hyper-inflation world where he turns against Jews. Germany may not become pro-Jewish. They may even try to stop immigration flows of OstJews which have cultural difference from the Urban Jews of German cities.
 
Quite some posters claim that the surface navy will be discredited. Not so: Skagerrak (Jutland) has been fought. The HSF has prevailed against vastly superior numbers. They've proven that they are equal to the RN, if not better - and not inferior, as the broad public and many sailors had believed prior to Jutland. The reputation of the Kaiserliche Marine thus is excellent. There were no mutinies; no sailors started any revolution; everything is fine and dandy.

And the navy will not have that massive problem that plagues the army: by 1917, the army was a militia force, which then had to be demobilised. What remains is hardly fit for combat. Thus, in the immediate aftermath of the war, there's hardly a way to avoid the formation of Freikorps made up from voluntaries, especially for occupation duty. The regular army will require one to two years to recover from demobilisation and to train new recruits and officers (the reserve officers that kept the old army running are all going home).
 
A 'controlled demolition' can too a certain extend change the diplomatic situation of post war europe.

Giving some bits to Italy mean a diplomatic reaprochment with her and this mean no future pressure in the south, the possibility to encircle France (and save future budget) and frankly try to not get a socialist revolution out of the country. In the end even Trieste is affordable to get away with it (Germany need it much less, OTL demonstrated that is easily blocked and keep it out of Hungarian/Croatian hand mean that they must rely more on Germany). Not counting that in Italy exist a very large manpool who can easily immigrate and will be lot less hostile than the French.

Giving out the rest of Galicia smooth things with Poland greatly but the big problem will be how the Poles and the rest of the new nation will be trated.

Don't know if they want to go for the Yugoslavia solution just after partiotioned a multi-national empire, it's more probable two different kingdom (with Bosnia partioned among them).

Romania can get concession...but how much depend on the level of irritation the Hungarian have created

The big change will be the influx of so many catholics in Germany.

The Dutch will be conflicted about the situation, as the embrace of Big Brother Germany can be a little too much to bear; they will probably try to juggle between London and Berlin so to have some option at least at long as they can.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Could we see a 'controlled demolition' idea at some point with regards to A-H?

Snip ..

Sure, but I would not call it likely. A-H post "win" in WW1 is one of those events where no single path is probable. We have a bunch of different paths, each with single digit % chance of happening. To take on of many variables, A-H reorganizing with German army still on A-H soil is much different from once Germans leave. So when I did my TL, Kaiser and Hapsburg had what we would call now a "grand compromise", and they just drove it through with threat of multiple Germans armies enforcing if Hungary said no. If I chose to do it 2 years later, Hungary saying no is real possibility since remoblizing part of German army for civil war in A-H is very unlikely.

Now you went Hapsburg Poland. The Hapsburg had been preparing for this possibility for decades, and hence the Hapsburg archdukes married only to Polish nobles. West Galicia admin area. It is clear where the Hapsburg wanted to draw the line, and I am pretty sure Lemberg is in Eastern Galicia. And to some extent, it was working. The Lemberg dialect of Polish was diverging from Polish, so given a few more decades and a little work, you could easily see another Slavic language emerge. It goes back to the old "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy". Now the Hapsburg wanted Posen given to Poland too. It makes sense, even though I think it would be political poison in Germany and Prussia.

If Hungary or A-H gives land to Romania, I think they would ask for in return the border adjustments they did IOTL after Romania effectively leaves the war. It would be an extra Romania population center in exchange for giving all of selected passes to the Hungarians or A-H.

The reason it makes sense to keep East Galicia is it has food that is need. And to some extent, these guys are playing Victoria 2, where they want to keep as much land as possible. Basic human nature. Now sure, taking East Galicia and whatever extra land controlled in what is now the Ukraine and forming the Ukraine (or Ruthenian nation) makes strategic sense, it is just going against human nature and male egos.

The post WW1 Russian/German diplomacy game is fascination. Both sides need each other, so badly, but so many have died in vain if they make peace. I go towards the baser side of men winning over logic here.

How do Dutch avoid being sucked into German orbit? While there will be a round 2 in most of these ATL, for 10 years or so, France or Russia will not be able to stop outright annexation of the Dutch should the Germans desire to do so. So, yes, the Dutch have to swing toward Germany while avoiding UK wrath and losing East Indies. Much like Prince-Bishops of Italy which both served the Pope and Holy Roman emperor, it is tough place to be.

No idea on Spain.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Quite some posters claim that the surface navy will be discredited. Not so: Skagerrak (Jutland) has been fought. The HSF has prevailed against vastly superior numbers. They've proven that they are equal to the RN, if not better - and not inferior, as the broad public and many sailors had believed prior to Jutland. The reputation of the Kaiserliche Marine thus is excellent. There were no mutinies; no sailors started any revolution; everything is fine and dandy.

True, but they also failed to break the Blockade. Failed to save colonies. So we will have people who argue and believe the German Navy won. And those that believed it lost. It is not so clear to me who wins the debate, but I tend to go with the "Surface Navy could not break blockade" crowd.
 
A 'controlled demolition' can too a certain extend change the diplomatic situation of post war europe.

Giving some bits to Italy mean a diplomatic reaprochment with her and this mean no future pressure in the south, the possibility to encircle France (and save future budget) and frankly try to not get a socialist revolution out of the country. In the end even Trieste is affordable to get away with it (Germany need it much less, OTL demonstrated that is easily blocked and keep it out of Hungarian/Croatian hand mean that they must rely more on Germany). Not counting that in Italy exist a very large manpool who can easily immigrate and will be lot less hostile than the French.

Giving out the rest of Galicia smooth things with Poland greatly but the big problem will be how the Poles and the rest of the new nation will be trated.

Don't know if they want to go for the Yugoslavia solution just after partiotioned a multi-national empire, it's more probable two different kingdom (with Bosnia partioned among them).

Romania can get concession...but how much depend on the level of irritation the Hungarian have created

The big change will be the influx of so many catholics in Germany.

The Dutch will be conflicted about the situation, as the embrace of Big Brother Germany can be a little too much to bear; they will probably try to juggle between London and Berlin so to have some option at least at long as they can.

Italy could likely get Austrian Dalmatia in the bargain, since the Yugoslav claim is gone, with the war lost. How Istria and Hungarian Dalmatia fold out really depends on which ally Germany prefers to please, Italy or Hungary. Italy, I think, would like a land bridge to Dalmatia, and Hungary doesn't want to lose its coast.
 

Deleted member 1487

The two things that jump out to me for culture in politics is shortage of men and closer than OTL USA/German relations. Germany/AH are short millions of workers from no war TL. And the USA never had the anti-German wave.
Not necessarily, as the resulting postwar lack of trade with major prewar buyers will seriously hurt German businesses, so there will initially be a slump that will probably only recover in the 1920s. So the shortage of +1 million men (dead and crippled) may help offset the slump somewhat. As it is if there is a demand Germans could return from the US. One this is certain, German emigration to the US is over for a while while the population recovers and we probably see German men having multiple girlfriends and as a result a fairly large number of single mothers dependent on the state. By the 1930s the population of workers will have recovered.


So, this means Germany will be looking for million of new workers. Like France, I think you will have a shortage of marriage age men. So lets look at details. In the occupied French area, I think it is safe to assume that we will see net French migration to outside of the occupied area. Probably true for Belgium Luxembourg. I assume you are adding a bit of Southern Belgium to Luxembourg. While it will be a minor issue if only thing happening, the net loss of a few 100K people over a few decades will be noticeable. Now to Poles. You had net polish migration from Posen and other areas to German industrial cities. With a Poland existing and probably doing ok economically, I think this stops and probably reverses. I tend to assume a strongly self identifying Polish worker who is looking to leave Posen will find Warsaw more attractive than Essen, if both have good jobs. Gutting A-H demographics by war will mean you don't get workers from there. Same for Ethnic Russians from Russia. Now I guess you have to look at Russian and Polish treatment of Jews. If the Jews are treated badly enough, you might get a big flow. If this is true, you get a more OstJewish aspect to Germany. Or do German companies seek workers from the Ottoman empire or other Islamic lands. Not sure on this one.
Poland will take a while to recover too, so by the 1930s they will start to export labor again, as agriculture doesn't pay as well as Ruhr jobs. Of course if the Galician coal deposits are discovered, then there are going to be some jobs there that will suck up a fair amount of labor. IIRC post WW1 IOTL the Polish economy wasn't really that great and that was with Greater Poland; it had a lot of violence with minorities, not to mention war with the Soviets, which wouldn't happen here. There was a fair amount of Polish emigration to the US at this time that Germany could suck up if it needed the excess labor. The A-H economy was underdeveloped as it was, so if Germany needs labor post-war instead of the Slavic and Hungarian (and Jewish) emigrants heading to the US for opportunities, they would likely end up in Germans, as the post war A-H economy won't be able to utilize them and getting to Germany is quite a bit cheaper. IOTL they didn't head to Germany because the German economy was already labor saturated and they were exporting people to the US, which won't be the case here. I don't see that finding labor is going to be hard in the post-war if there is a demand for more than the German populace can provide, especially if Germany dominates Central Europe industrially and drives competition out of business. Anti-Semitism in Russia post war is going to be bad (just like anti-Germanism), just as it was during the war IOTL, as the Soviets won't be around to have their inclusive ideology blunt the traditional anti-semitic violence in the Russian countryside. I doubt that there will be a need to import Ottoman labor, especially as it will be badly needed in the Middle East, as huge swaths of that Empire have been destroyed and depopulated. Turkey and their subject peoples need to recover demographically for several generations before they can export labor.

Italy though might be a source of labor for France and Germany post-war, especially if things get bad politically.


Now to politics. I think Polish parties are less important. You may well have net population flows to Poland, you have a Hapsburg to speak for Polish interest and be a mediator. You have a labor shortage. This is good for unions. This is good for the Socialists. Looks like SPD will dominate the government. Army is more a militia now than the reliable conservative instrument prewar. Kaiser will make concession to keep things working, and lots of concessions.
Sounds about right to me.



Surface navy will be discredited. Can naval air service and U-boat commands separate themselves from failure of capital fleet? Looks like to me we see loss of power to naval lobby. Plus with Russia preparing for round two, and looks like France, we see strong Army lobby. Kaiser needs SPD votes, so do we see more non-noble officer commissions? People often criticize failure of harsh peace terms and harsh reparations, but here shows other case. Lack of reparations and large scale annexations of France means France can start rebuilding army immediately. I think you will have German generals saying that "We have not signed a peace deal, but a 25 year cease fire". And I tend to think they are right, in this case.
I think the navy is going to focus more on the Jeune Ecole theory after the successful examples of their small units in the war. Uboats and naval aviation are going to be the major offensive arms of the navy, while the surface fleet is going to focus primarily on coastal defense and limited power projection to Norway and the Baltic. The naval lobby pretty much was dead by 1912 IOTL and was overtaken by the army lobby, so that trend just goes into overdrive post-war. The army and air force are going to be the big ticket items in the government budget. I think tax reform is going to hit the wealthy in Germany hard postwar to be able to handle those expenses, veterans benefits, and the SPDs social agenda. I think too reform is coming to the imperial system, so we will see an independent Bavaria get absorbed into a federal system.


Culture. German excluded from British Empire. Excluded from French Empire. Only remaining choice is USA sphere of influence. Kaiser will kiss US presidents figurative ass to get trade deals. Same with whatever additional terms a place like Brazil demands. Germany needs things like Rubber that don't grow in MittelEurope or Ottoman Empire. No purging of German culture in USA. So culturally, you will see things flow from USA to Germany. So lets say Jazz still becomes huge in USA. You will see Jazz flow into Germany. And vice versa. I would not be sure that after loss, Germans are welcome at say French Riveria or British empire as tourists. So a lot more Germans travel to USA compared to OTL, among small % who travel overseas a lot.
Latin America, Holland, the US, and various other smaller nations (Persia for instance) will be getting a lot of German interest. I imagine China too will get a major German goal as far as allies go and they will certainly want German help once they have proven to be winners in Europe (to a point) and have no colonial interests left in Asia.
Important to note is that Germany won't lose her investments in the US so will be economically more important there, probably will also have a greater influence on the US military, and will not lose her patent rights ITTL, which IOTL were taken as reparations by the US and other allied powers. Also Germany is going to be the new big exporter of nitrates thanks to her investments in the Haber process production, just as she was in the 1920s, which will badly screw the Chilean economy.
The lack of suppression of German in the US will have a major impact on post-war relations and prohibition will very likely fail. So organized crime doesn't get big in the US as a result. IMHO the Great Depression doesn't happen either without WW1, though a big recession post-war is going to happen as will one in the 1930s, but it won't be as bad as the OTL one. Especially if Germany puts limits on the Kaiser and Kaiser Wilhelm sets down at some point, Germany is going to get a much better image in the US, but that depends on how pissed people get about German treatment of the conquered peoples in Poland and whatever happens in A-H. Still German immigration to the US is going to drop off especially compared to OTL, so there will be a major deficit of German ethnic influence in the US without the post-war exodus to the US and Latin America because of poor economic conditions that were faced IOTL.
As an aside then we won't see the Lindberg baby kidnapping blamed on a German immigrant, as he won't come to the US at all with a better German economy.

Also remember that Germany was always receptive to the US culture after WW1 until the rise of the Nazis IOTL, its just the US that closed itself off to Germany during and after WW1 (and WW2).
 
Are you butterflying away the Spanish flu epidemic?

If Germany absorbs the Germanic areas of AH it will alter the political complexion of the Reichstag. Big boost for the Centre Party but Socialists will get a good share of the new seats as well. Afterwards I would see some worries in the composite state of the Catholic Church having too much influence leading to a whiff of Kulturkampf redux.

I see the German naval laws re capital ship construction being a very divisive political issue. The outcome could initially lean in Tirpitz's favor but let's go back to the prior paragraph. Are these Austrian legislators going to be ardent navalists? I don't think so.

A limit on the size of the German U-Boat fleet (possibly incl. a 5 year ban on new construction) may be a element of the peace treaty.

I do not see Kaiser Wilhelm even remotely becoming an Americaphile. He will remain controversial but I would bet on him staying on the throne.

Before the war Germany signed a deal with Liberia to develop it as a source of rubber. The Liberians thought it was a pretty good deal compared to their prior dealings with Britain & France. However in Aug 1917 OTL Liberia declared war on Germany as an excuse to grab German assets. In TTL the original deal would be consummated.
 
Italy could likely get Austrian Dalmatia in the bargain, since the Yugoslav claim is gone, with the war lost. How Istria and Hungarian Dalmatia fold out really depends on which ally Germany prefers to please, Italy or Hungary. Italy, I think, would like a land bridge to Dalmatia, and Hungary doesn't want to lose its coast.

No. Italy after losing WWI is a basket case, and any gains it would get from a "controlled demolition" of A-H will not be areas where the Italian population is barely 2% of the total population (Dalmatia). Besides, Italy was Germany`s enemy, remember? I will hardly be given anything else except Trentino and the Morgan Line, perhaps with Capodistria, since these territories are if not 100% at least over 85% Italian.

Also, the Adriatic coast will not be Hungarian. It will likely be given to the Slavic state wiking mentioned (composed of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia - all former parts of Austria-Hungary). Balkan politics do not consist of Budapest and Belgrade alone.
 
The lack of suppression of German in the US will have a major impact on post-war relations and prohibition will very likely fail. So organized crime doesn't get big in the US as a result. IMHO the Great Depression doesn't happen either without WW1, though a big recession post-war is going to happen as will one in the 1930s, but it won't be as bad as the OTL one. Especially if Germany puts limits on the Kaiser and Kaiser Wilhelm sets down at some point, Germany is going to get a much better image in the US, but that depends on how pissed people get about German treatment of the conquered peoples in Poland and whatever happens in A-H. Still German immigration to the US is going to drop off especially compared to OTL, so there will be a major deficit of German ethnic influence in the US without the post-war exodus to the US and Latin America because of poor economic conditions that were faced IOTL.
As an aside then we won't see the Lindberg baby kidnapping blamed on a German immigrant, as he won't come to the US at all with a better German economy.

Also remember that Germany was always receptive to the US culture after WW1 until the rise of the Nazis IOTL, its just the US that closed itself off to Germany during and after WW1 (and WW2).
I disagree on the points about prohibition, organized crime, and the great depression.

Most of the problems that lead to the great depression will still be there. for example the drought, the loss of farm income from providing feed for horses as cars become more common, and then the whole mess of stock market speculation leading to the crash of 1929.

Prohibition will still happen since their was a driving social movement to curb Americas problems of alcoholism. One must remember we were major boozers of high octane liquor.
 
I wonder what the effect will be on american race relations.

WW1 saw blacks serving in record numbers where they went to Europe and were treated as equals. They came home and demanded changes. This wont happen now.

WW1 helped heal some of the divides left over from the Civil war which happened just 50 years earlier and their were still many Confederate veterans around in the south. So now fewer young men from the south will have served under the union flag.
 

Deleted member 1487

I disagree on the points about prohibition, organized crime, and the great depression.

Most of the problems that lead to the great depression will still be there. for example the drought, the loss of farm income from providing feed for horses as cars become more common, and then the whole mess of stock market speculation leading to the crash of 1929.
As far as the dustbowl went, over farming as result of the war in 1917-19 to feed Europe really created a serious problem in the Mid-West, which wouldn't exist here, as the market for food purchases in Europe would collapse with an early end to the war, so no over farming to the extent that we saw IOTL. Also without the flood of money that poured into the US during 1917-1918 due to the massive amounts of unsecured loans provided to the Allies, not to mention US military purchasing, there won't be as much money floating around, nor will the US bankers get as much money to speculate with in the 1920s from Allied repayments of war loans. The period of May 1917-November 1918 saw the US give double the loans to their allies than they made during the entire period from 1914- April 1917. Also the French and Russians are going to have a hard time paying back their loans after the war, as will the British who took out the loans in their name to get a better lending rate. Also without mobilization in the US there is just less money floating around in the US economy to drive the bubble that blew up the world economy.

Instead we have a recession in mid-1917 as war contracts dry up and the war ends, and in 1918-1919 some increased internal consumption thanks to 2.5 years of Entente purchasing in the US spreading money around. I agree that we would get a recession/depression by the late 1920s because of structural factors in the US economy, but the bubble wouldn't be as inflated without the structural factors of US war entry on the economy, nor the problems of the Versailles peace. The US would have more international economic competition and would still have to pay royalties on German patents, so profits would be less overall, meaning a smaller bubble. Russia would still be competing in the food market, so sales to Europe post-war for food would be much less, again helping prevent the dust bowl and its associated problems.

There would still be a major issue economically by the 1930s as technology disrupted the existent economic structure, but it wouldn't blow up as badly as IOTL.


Prohibition will still happen since their was a driving social movement to curb Americas problems of alcoholism. One must remember we were major boozers of high octane liquor.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohi...tates#Development_of_the_Prohibition_movement
In January 1917, the 65th Congress convened, in which the dries outnumbered the wets by 140 to 64 in the Democratic Party and 138 to 62 among Republicans. With America's declaration of war against Germany in April, German-Americans—a major force against prohibition—were sidelined and their protests subsequently ignored. In addition, a new justification for prohibition arose: prohibiting the production of alcoholic beverages would allow more resources—especially the grain that would otherwise be used to make alcohol—to be devoted to the war effort. While "war prohibition" was a spark for the movement,[31] by the time Prohibition was enacted, the war was over.

I'm not saying that prohibitionists would stop, but without the war as a catalyst for its implementation it is unlikely to pass.



Are you butterflying away the Spanish flu epidemic?
Not entirely, but it won't spread as far or be as devastating without US entry into the war, the disease gestating in US barracks, and then being carried to Europe by those soldiers.


If Germany absorbs the Germanic areas of AH it will alter the political complexion of the Reichstag. Big boost for the Centre Party but Socialists will get a good share of the new seats as well. Afterwards I would see some worries in the composite state of the Catholic Church having too much influence leading to a whiff of Kulturkampf redux.
Sure, but I think without Bismarck and with the declining power of the protestant Junkers (and rise of the Pan-Germanists) the pressure for a culture war is pretty weak.

I see the German naval laws re capital ship construction being a very divisive political issue. The outcome could initially lean in Tirpitz's favor but let's go back to the prior paragraph. Are these Austrian legislators going to be ardent navalists? I don't think so.
They were too far advanced IIRC to really get rid of by 1918-19, so they probably get completed, but then not renewed or expanded. As it was the naval race was over in 1912 and the Germans pretty much decided to complete what was on the books and just modernize some of the fleet periodically rather than expand it further.

A limit on the size of the German U-Boat fleet (possibly incl. a 5 year ban on new construction) may be a element of the peace treaty.
How would this be enforced though? Germany holds more cards than the UK especially without US loans and the revolution in Russia likely to increase the German combat power in the West, especially after France just failed in April with its offensive and is now in mutiny (not that Britain is really that aware of it necessarily).

I do not see Kaiser Wilhelm even remotely becoming an Americaphile. He will remain controversial but I would bet on him staying on the throne.
I'm not saying Amero-phile, but at least willing to pursue economic interests with the US due to pressure from industrialists and other political factions in Germany post war, as his power is diminished by political movements and he has less power to push his own agenda. I agree that he would stay on the throne for some time, but might step down in the future for 'health reasons' if he has to accede to too many concessions vis-a-vis is own power.

Before the war Germany signed a deal with Liberia to develop it as a source of rubber. The Liberians thought it was a pretty good deal compared to their prior dealings with Britain & France. However in Aug 1917 OTL Liberia declared war on Germany as an excuse to grab German assets. In TTL the original deal would be consummated.
Interesting...
 

Deleted member 1487

I wonder what the effect will be on american race relations.

WW1 saw blacks serving in record numbers where they went to Europe and were treated as equals. They came home and demanded changes. This wont happen now.
Nope, race relations are going to remain bad.


WW1 helped heal some of the divides left over from the Civil war which happened just 50 years earlier and their were still many Confederate veterans around in the south. So now fewer young men from the south will have served under the union flag.
I think the Spanish American war really did that more. In that war you actually had a famous Confederate officer leading Union troops into battle in Cuba; as the army was moved through the South to muster at ports for embarkment to Cuba, Southerners cheered them to everyone's surprise, as this was only a generation and a half after the Civil War. Even former Confederate stalwarts were shocked that they themselves were cheering for federal soldiers and their sons were serving in that army in blue uniforms.

That deal was already worked out in 1898, but WW1 did help to reinforce that somewhat. I don't think its really as big as issue as you think by 1914; confederate nostalgia only really became a major politically divisive force again during the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950-60s.
 
How would this be enforced though? Germany holds more cards than the UK especially without US loans and the revolution in Russia likely to increase the German combat power in the West, especially after France just failed in April with its offensive and is now in mutiny (not that Britain is really that aware of it necessarily).

Germany itself will enforce, probably a mix of budget problem for Germany (times will be rough) and a general attempt by everybody to avoid World Senseless Massacre II (as OTL...ok they failed miserable but at least they made an attempt)
 

Deleted member 1487

Germany itself will enforce, probably a mix of budget problem for Germany (times will be rough) and a general attempt by everybody to avoid World Senseless Massacre II (as OTL...ok they failed miserable but at least they made an attempt)

And would have succeeded if not for that pesky Hitler!
 
In 1917 German east africa was still fighting - it would be impossible to give it uop, so each peace deal would (99%) see German East Africa staying German.

I also think the navy would NOT being discredited . rast mentioned Jutland - this would be styled as one of the "big wins" of the war - beating tghe brits on their own turf (tactically sinking so much more tonnage than losing IS a win - even if it did not change anything in the strategic picture)

Dismantling A-H - only if Germany comes to the conclusion that the Habsburgs can't hold out. Difficult with A-H "winning" the war (even gains vs Serbia). At least in the short range - it might disintegrate in the long run.

Russia - I assume no Kerensky offiensive so the Red revolution is butterflied. - IF we actually HAVE a Red revolution and the killing of the Czar and the civil war. This actually might have beneficial results for Germany. Germany would probably be part of the intervention forces - so German and British troops will fight as allies - which could lead to improving relations.

Germany getting money for colonies - = the empire will be able to repay (at least) part of the internal debt = money for the population to spend for consumption... = early economic recovery - UK/France will not get money from Germany, but will have to pay to the US. - Could this lwead to a 1920 "bases for debt reduction" agreement between UK/France and the US. The Brit and French population might see this as US Betrayal/greed/... and relations to the US might become tense (public opinion)
While the british populaton might be thinking Germany has fought for their gains, America has just sat back and stole our Empire (parts) and thus look for allying to Germany, its more difficult for the proud french, but even they might "respect" that Germany won on the battlefield (sort of) while the treacherous US just stole their share.

Eventually this might lead to an even deeper US isolationism...
 

rebeu

Banned
As some posters have mentioned, things will radically change with a Jewish-friendly German imperial state in Europe, a lasting Ottoman Empire, and a Germanosphere Middle East. This would see German interests allied with traditional Islam of the Caliphate (which was still radically anti-modenrity and require some addressing.) "Anglophile" (I really use this lightly) reformists such as proto-Muslim Brotherhood and other thinkers have already been debating in a British Cairo which reminds me, the relation between Egypt and Istanbul will need addressing too. Not to mention the British positions in the Persian Gulf; the "Arab Awareness" that has been instigated in the Levant, as well as the French positions in Morocco and Tunisia and last but not least her Algerian departments.

The Arabo-Islamic world is going to be really interesting and different here.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Great question. Got me.

I have a question of my own. Would the ottomans survive? And how would they survive? Ie brutally putting down any handball revolts?
 
Top